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Chebucto Regional Softball Club

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  3. "It's extremely frustrating and also f*cked up" - one of the world's best indie studios is facing shock closure following confounding Steam ban
A forum for discussing and organizing recreational softball and baseball games and leagues in the greater Halifax area.

"It's extremely frustrating and also f*cked up" - one of the world's best indie studios is facing shock closure following confounding Steam ban

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  • ? Guest
    i think we’re missing the forest for the trees here by arguing wether valve should’ve allowed the game or not. the fact that valve is in such a dominant position that them refusing to sell a game can mean not only the game’s failure, but the shutdown of the studio making it, is a big problem. and it’s not just this game, after the payment processor affair, [VILE: Exhumed](https://dreadxp.com/vile-is-banned/) (a game about sexual assault) was banned from steam (for being about sexual assault), before it could even release game devs shouldn’t have to rely on just one vendor’s approval to sell their stuff, it’s an unhealthy ecosystem.
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    mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
    wrote last edited by
    #50
    Yeah, it's a monopoly. That's not a value judgement. It's not calling them evil or criminal or anything. It is a necessary recognition of their market position. I.e. - they have competitors, but those competitors *do not matter.*
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    • woelkchen@lemmy.worldW woelkchen@lemmy.world
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      Guest
      wrote last edited by
      #51
      >You might not immediately recognise the name Santa Ragione, but the independent Italian studio has been creating boundary pushing, award-winning games for over a decade and a half now. Award winning, best indie game studio yet the name is unrecognisable...? It's pretty fishy just from the beginning of the article. I checked their game, some are not well received, and their latest game have only 92 reviews on Steam. Not good, seems like the studio is already on their way out and he believe Horses gonna save the studio. But if you look at the game https://youtu.be/JYewjNYxV-8 It's an asset flip niche horror game, it's not gonna save the studio. So what left is the dev trying to spin a sob story to hopefully rile up the anti-steam crowd to get some pity sales.
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      • ? Guest
        well, many games are tied to the steam client (through the steam runtimes, steam DRM, steam input, needing a steam account for online play...). for most games, no, you can't just take the executable and do whatever you want with it. you'll need the steam client, and this creates a lock-in effect. because you need steam open to play all your steam games, you won't look elsewhere for games, and you won't see games not on steam, unless they're big enough. imo, the solution to this is to break the lock-in, have interoperability between clients. there's no good reason why cross-play between steam and GOG, for example, is an exception and not the norm. there's no good reason why the steam client is required for so many games, there should be offline installers. there's no good reason why steam input only works with the steam client. part of the reason why proton is so amazing is that it's open-source, other steam technologies should be the same!
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        Guest
        wrote last edited by
        #52
        Sure, many games are tied to various Steam services, but that's by the choice of the games developer. Steam offers various built in services that game devs can choose to use if they want. It's not like it's some kind of requirement. You might as well complain that game devs use Windows binaries, locking their games to only run on Windows. Sure, I prefer it when they target other platforms, but that's 1000% not Microsoft's fault that the dev chose to dev for their platform. I'm not mad at Microsoft for so many games being Windows only. I'm mad at the devs. And games that build themselves around Steam services are *of course* going to be tied to Steam. That's a choice the devs made. If they wanted their game to run without needing the Steam client, they trivially could have built it that way. They just would have had to either reimplement all those Steam features themselves, or done without. And if people want those Steam features, every store client who wants to run those games would have to implement those features in an interoperable way. It's easy to say "have interoperability between clients," but that's glossing over the potentially thousands of dev hours required to implement all of the features needed. And that's assuming they could all agree on a spec. And to your final point about being open source. First, it gives very "any musician who gets paid is a sellout" energy. But more than that, it doesn't actually solve the problem you have. Even if Steam open sourced their tooling, that doesn't mean other players in the space could integrate it. Steam has grown organically for the past 30yrs, and trying to extricate the deep inner bits and then graft them on to your own solution isn't as easy as it sounds.
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        • M mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
          > There are games exclusive to Epic that do just fine. Alan Wake 2 took an entire year to become profitable. It's because the one store everyone uses didn't carry it.
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          wrote last edited by
          #53
          Satisfactory made $11 million in the first year when it was exclusive to Epic (and not available on "the one store everybody uses").
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          • woelkchen@lemmy.worldW woelkchen@lemmy.world
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            Guest
            wrote last edited by
            #54
            I understand that this is a problem for the studio, but no one would expect Disney to distribute a David Cronenberg movie. Steam is THE mainstream distribution platform for games, and for that they are already pretty open for weird shit. It's this weird american free speech thing only for video games: "I'm allowed to make it so you have to sell it!". No?
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            • ? Guest
              Satisfactory made $11 million in the first year when it was exclusive to Epic (and not available on "the one store everybody uses").
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              mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
              wrote last edited by
              #55
              Exceptions mean there's no rule, yeah? Minecraft, therefore, 90% marketshare doesn't matter.
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              • ? Guest
                >You might not immediately recognise the name Santa Ragione, but the independent Italian studio has been creating boundary pushing, award-winning games for over a decade and a half now. Award winning, best indie game studio yet the name is unrecognisable...? It's pretty fishy just from the beginning of the article. I checked their game, some are not well received, and their latest game have only 92 reviews on Steam. Not good, seems like the studio is already on their way out and he believe Horses gonna save the studio. But if you look at the game https://youtu.be/JYewjNYxV-8 It's an asset flip niche horror game, it's not gonna save the studio. So what left is the dev trying to spin a sob story to hopefully rile up the anti-steam crowd to get some pity sales.
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                Guest
                wrote last edited by
                #56
                Their previous game seems like a proper hand-drawn stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqDalFNDdAw
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                • M mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
                  Exceptions mean there's no rule, yeah? Minecraft, therefore, 90% marketshare doesn't matter.
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                  Guest
                  wrote last edited by
                  #57
                  > Exceptions mean there's no rule, yeah? 1) when you're arguing that it's impossible for a game to make a profit without Steam, yes 2) my post was in reply to you listing a single game that wasn't profitable for a year and blaming that on it not being on Steam. If my example is not a valid argument then you shouldn't have argued that way in the first place.
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                  • M mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
                    Yeah, it's a monopoly. That's not a value judgement. It's not calling them evil or criminal or anything. It is a necessary recognition of their market position. I.e. - they have competitors, but those competitors *do not matter.*
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                    Guest
                    wrote last edited by
                    #58
                    > they have competitors So not a monopoly.
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                    • ? Guest
                      > they have competitors So not a monopoly.
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                      mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
                      wrote last edited by
                      #59
                      Absolute monopolies are fiction. Standard Oil only ever controlled 85% of America's oil. Monopoly is when your competition does not matter - not when it does not exist. There will always be *someone* competing with you. But if I open Mindbleach's Video Emporium and move six units per quarter, the impact on Steam is approximately dick. So is Epic's.
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                      • ? Guest
                        > Exceptions mean there's no rule, yeah? 1) when you're arguing that it's impossible for a game to make a profit without Steam, yes 2) my post was in reply to you listing a single game that wasn't profitable for a year and blaming that on it not being on Steam. If my example is not a valid argument then you shouldn't have argued that way in the first place.
                        M This user is from outside of this forum
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                        mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
                        wrote last edited by
                        #60
                        > impossible Strawman. It is demonstrably much harder for games to profit, when they're not on Steam. Exceptions are rare viral hits. Alan Wake 2 was a popular and acclaimed game, and it did terribly on PC specifically, because it wasn't on the one storefront that handles an overwhelming majority of PC sales. The difference between PC games not on Steam and iOS games not on the App Store is *slim.* So yes, there *are* games exclusive to Epic that do just fine, *but not many.* Odds say, fucked. Being unavailable on Steam means most PC gamers will not consider buying it, and may never even be aware of it. We have a word for that.
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                        • M mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
                          Absolute monopolies are fiction. Standard Oil only ever controlled 85% of America's oil. Monopoly is when your competition does not matter - not when it does not exist. There will always be *someone* competing with you. But if I open Mindbleach's Video Emporium and move six units per quarter, the impact on Steam is approximately dick. So is Epic's.
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                          Guest
                          wrote last edited by
                          #61
                          [Monopoly: ](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monopoly) > 1: **exclusive** ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action >2: **exclusive** possession or control >3: a commodity controlled by **one party** >4: : **one** that has a monopoly
                          M 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • M mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
                            > impossible Strawman. It is demonstrably much harder for games to profit, when they're not on Steam. Exceptions are rare viral hits. Alan Wake 2 was a popular and acclaimed game, and it did terribly on PC specifically, because it wasn't on the one storefront that handles an overwhelming majority of PC sales. The difference between PC games not on Steam and iOS games not on the App Store is *slim.* So yes, there *are* games exclusive to Epic that do just fine, *but not many.* Odds say, fucked. Being unavailable on Steam means most PC gamers will not consider buying it, and may never even be aware of it. We have a word for that.
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                            Guest
                            wrote last edited by
                            #62
                            > Alan Wake 2 was a popular and acclaimed game, and it did terribly on PC specifically Exceptions mean there’s no rule, yeah?
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                            • ? Guest
                              > Alan Wake 2 was a popular and acclaimed game, and it did terribly on PC specifically Exceptions mean there’s no rule, yeah?
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                              mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
                              wrote last edited by
                              #63
                              Struggling is the rule, not the exception. Most games do much worse when they're not on Steam. Most means more. Do you understand that?
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                              • ? Guest
                                [Monopoly: ](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monopoly) > 1: **exclusive** ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action >2: **exclusive** possession or control >3: a commodity controlled by **one party** >4: : **one** that has a monopoly
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                                mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
                                wrote last edited by
                                #64
                                https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined > Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors. That is how that term is used here: a "monopolist" is a firm with significant and durable market power.
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                                • ? Guest
                                  Their previous game seems like a proper hand-drawn stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqDalFNDdAw
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                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #65
                                  Saturnalia also looks pretty good tbh. Maybe this is what they mean by having external party joining the porject instead of having people inhouse doing the work. >As Pietro puts it, Santa Ragione operates "more like a film production studio, where people kind of come together for a project rather than being there all the time", often from fields outside video games. Saturnalia's art director, Marta Gabas, for instance, is a film and theatre set designer who had never made a game before. The visual is significantly different between game, and this new one in particular feels like they run out of money and have to use bought asset to stitch together a game with no visual coherent. Gamedev is a very risky business and they seems to be on the way out anyway.
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                                  • ? Guest
                                    i think we’re missing the forest for the trees here by arguing wether valve should’ve allowed the game or not. the fact that valve is in such a dominant position that them refusing to sell a game can mean not only the game’s failure, but the shutdown of the studio making it, is a big problem. and it’s not just this game, after the payment processor affair, [VILE: Exhumed](https://dreadxp.com/vile-is-banned/) (a game about sexual assault) was banned from steam (for being about sexual assault), before it could even release game devs shouldn’t have to rely on just one vendor’s approval to sell their stuff, it’s an unhealthy ecosystem.
                                    ? Offline
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                                    Guest
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #66
                                    But then the issue is not because Valve is vicious company that kill competitor, it's because the competitor keep shooting themselves. It's like Luigi keep wining by doing nothing. What do you expect Valve to do?
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                                    • PikaP Pika
                                      I have to disagree to be honest. Not because I think that they should allow a naked guy with a young girl(gross), but because in the time that it took for steam to review the game and give a verdict, they had already changed it on their own to be a different model. For them to refuse re-submission of the game is pretty dumb, considering that the offending content(if that is what it was) had already been fixed in the release build and steam was operating under old information. If they haden't already changed it for the release candidate I would be fully on board, but clearly they saw wrong in it as well which was why they had changed it prior to steams decision. Steam forced an early release build of the game way earlier than they normally asked for, which meant it was exactly that, a pre-release build, meaning it had not gone through the proper channels for vetting or checking to make sure that what they wanted to publish was a final product. Then when requested for a review of the actual final build, steam refused. This combined with the fact that the only storefront that blocked the release was steam, I definitely think steam is the bad guy here.
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                                      Guest
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #67
                                      It's also far from the first time Steam's content review process has stirred up controversy--even before Collective Shout--which is ultimately the reason why this is getting so much run in games media right now. At some point Steam has to get their shit together, start hiring people, and revamp their scattershot content review system before they get on the wrong side of an incident by either letting something through that stirs up a shitstorm and Congress gets involved, or pissing off the wrong publisher and having the ESA come down on them. That said, I don't think this particular game is the horse to back for this effort, so to speak.
                                      PikaP 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • woelkchen@lemmy.worldW woelkchen@lemmy.world
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                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #68
                                        >one of the world's best indie studios How this metric is measured? They have a handful of games that are nothing compared to tons of other indie devs on the market. Calling them "One of World's best" seems misleading.
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                                        • woelkchen@lemmy.worldW woelkchen@lemmy.world
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                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #69
                                          this is what happens when 350 people make like 50 billion, fucking reality collapses and they believe they own the world
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