Without looking it up can you remember *why* Mary and Joseph were traveling when she was so pregnant?
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Without looking it up can you remember *why* Mary and Joseph were traveling when she was so pregnant? Why didn't they have a place to stay?
If you can't remember or never knew give your best guess. (I'm curious about the stories that live in people's heads as much as the ones that were written down.)
@futurebird Incredibly stupid bureaucracy which meant a census had to be taken in people's place of origin, not where they lived. I have never understood it.
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Without looking it up can you remember *why* Mary and Joseph were traveling when she was so pregnant? Why didn't they have a place to stay?
If you can't remember or never knew give your best guess. (I'm curious about the stories that live in people's heads as much as the ones that were written down.)
I went to church enough that I think this ought to be correct, however, I've been very wrong about these things in the past (with confidence) when working from memory.
My understanding was that everyone needed to go home because the Romans were doing a census so they could count all the people and collect taxes, so they were trying to get home in time but didn't quite make it.
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I went to church enough that I think this ought to be correct, however, I've been very wrong about these things in the past (with confidence) when working from memory.
My understanding was that everyone needed to go home because the Romans were doing a census so they could count all the people and collect taxes, so they were trying to get home in time but didn't quite make it.
@futurebird funny thing. The taxes bit are not in the Bible verse I recall just the census and Bethlehem and all the ones that have David as ancestor going there. Historically the census was obviously for calculating taxes I just don’t remember that as part of the gospel.
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Without looking it up can you remember *why* Mary and Joseph were traveling when she was so pregnant? Why didn't they have a place to stay?
If you can't remember or never knew give your best guess. (I'm curious about the stories that live in people's heads as much as the ones that were written down.)
@futurebird@sauropods.win King Herod was conducting a census. (There is no other record of this census, which is odd but not impossible.)
He required people to return to their town of birth for this census. (You conduct a census to determine how much labor / tax base you have available. This means knowing how many workers there are in a given area on a normal day. You want to count people while they're at home.)
Naturally, this resulted in a lot of travel, and that meant the hospitality industry was heavily overloaded. That meant they couldn't rent a proper room. (I'm not sure how this interacts with the duty of hospitality in Judaism.) -
@futurebird funny thing. The taxes bit are not in the Bible verse I recall just the census and Bethlehem and all the ones that have David as ancestor going there. Historically the census was obviously for calculating taxes I just don’t remember that as part of the gospel.
@pms @futurebird the romans had a general census in the entire realm every five years, though sometimes it was delayed for a year due to e.g. revolts or other events. These were tax censuses, and in some regions they counted members of tribes like in Judea, which meant that members of a tribe had to go to where the tribal center was to be counted.
There were other more local censuses as well, but it's like there was a census around 2 or 1 BC.
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@futurebird@sauropods.win King Herod was conducting a census. (There is no other record of this census, which is odd but not impossible.)
He required people to return to their town of birth for this census. (You conduct a census to determine how much labor / tax base you have available. This means knowing how many workers there are in a given area on a normal day. You want to count people while they're at home.)
Naturally, this resulted in a lot of travel, and that meant the hospitality industry was heavily overloaded. That meant they couldn't rent a proper room. (I'm not sure how this interacts with the duty of hospitality in Judaism.)I'm confused about no one wanting to bring a pregnant woman inside if she's about to pop off.
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I'm confused about no one wanting to bring a pregnant woman inside if she's about to pop off.
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Without looking it up can you remember *why* Mary and Joseph were traveling when she was so pregnant? Why didn't they have a place to stay?
If you can't remember or never knew give your best guess. (I'm curious about the stories that live in people's heads as much as the ones that were written down.)
@futurebird Joseph burned down their house during a messiah-reveal party mishap involving a Greek fire recipe he got from a travelling scroll salesman
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@pms @futurebird the romans had a general census in the entire realm every five years, though sometimes it was delayed for a year due to e.g. revolts or other events. These were tax censuses, and in some regions they counted members of tribes like in Judea, which meant that members of a tribe had to go to where the tribal center was to be counted.
There were other more local censuses as well, but it's like there was a census around 2 or 1 BC.
@EvilCartyen @futurebird jep the tax thing was something I learned as an adult and not part of my childhood Christmas and I don’t remember it being discussed. It is often mentioned in this thread though I wonder if it is a cultural thing.
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@futurebird Incredibly stupid bureaucracy which meant a census had to be taken in people's place of origin, not where they lived. I have never understood it.
@Ailbhe IIRC, the people writing the gospels were trying to reconcile a prophecy that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem with another prophecy that he would be from Nazareth.
The solution was to use vaguely gestured at Roman census machinery to compel Joseph and Mary to travel to Bethlehem, have them flee to Egypt due to Herod's widespread infanticide, and return later to settle in Nazareth.
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@Ailbhe IIRC, the people writing the gospels were trying to reconcile a prophecy that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem with another prophecy that he would be from Nazareth.
The solution was to use vaguely gestured at Roman census machinery to compel Joseph and Mary to travel to Bethlehem, have them flee to Egypt due to Herod's widespread infanticide, and return later to settle in Nazareth.
"... trying to reconcile a prophecy that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem with another prophecy that he would be from Nazareth."
I have heard this too. But when I've tried to find out more there are so many People With Agendas in the mix I kind of give up trying to learn anything of consequence.
So, I focus more on what people remember about the story. Because I think we latch on to things that make sense, that keep such stories alive.
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@futurebird Joseph burned down their house during a messiah-reveal party mishap involving a Greek fire recipe he got from a travelling scroll salesman
At last a sensible answer.
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@EvilCartyen @futurebird jep the tax thing was something I learned as an adult and not part of my childhood Christmas and I don’t remember it being discussed. It is often mentioned in this thread though I wonder if it is a cultural thing.
Is it more of a US thing I wonder? It always felt like a "joke for the grown ups" that now, being grown up I still don't really get.
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I wonder if Luke was deliberately trying to smear Judaism / the Jewish people to gain more acceptance to a Greek audience with that.
It sounds like most of the annoying Christians I know more than anything if it was really how it went down. Some people say that is a layer added to the story later though.
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Without looking it up can you remember *why* Mary and Joseph were traveling when she was so pregnant? Why didn't they have a place to stay?
If you can't remember or never knew give your best guess. (I'm curious about the stories that live in people's heads as much as the ones that were written down.)
@futurebird “And it came to pass in those days that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed…” (I learned that from Peanuts.)
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@futurebird “And it came to pass in those days that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed…” (I learned that from Peanuts.)
That's how a lot of traditional "miracle plays" start.
