Defining what is mean by "instinct" and "instinctively" is much much much harder than I think most people realize.
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@futurebird@sauropods.win next explain the color red!
Red isn't as bad since I can show a color just about everyone will agree is red. I can also show "reds" that will start arguments, but there are some reds that are pretty universal. So you can say that red is distributed around these, except when it's contextual. As in "red hair" which is really a warm shade of light brown.
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This is how it is used. But, what do we mean by "the weaver bird builds a nest by instinct"
One thing we mean that is clear, is that they are not taught how to do this by another bird. But if you watch a bird weave they will solve problems, make adjustments, get better at selecting materials. There is learning within the process.
Sometimes when someone hands me something to fix I can't explain what I'm doing. "I'm fixing it."
What is THAT about?
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This is how it is used. But, what do we mean by "the weaver bird builds a nest by instinct"
One thing we mean that is clear, is that they are not taught how to do this by another bird. But if you watch a bird weave they will solve problems, make adjustments, get better at selecting materials. There is learning within the process.
@futurebird @AbyssalRook so basically like how (virtually) all humans have some capacity to learn and produce language, but no one has ever uttered a sentence that was entirely formed from nothing but a priori hard-wiring in their brains...
wondering what happens with an orb weaver... they definitely need to work stuff out given the huge variety of arrangements they need to deal with, and the end result of the orb pattern has to be consistent, but what goes on in what they subjectively want to do/react to that results in that pattern? it's definitely not a top-down blueprint for an abstract orb web surely...... -
Red isn't as bad since I can show a color just about everyone will agree is red. I can also show "reds" that will start arguments, but there are some reds that are pretty universal. So you can say that red is distributed around these, except when it's contextual. As in "red hair" which is really a warm shade of light brown.
@futurebird @froge the way we parse light going into these particular anatomical structures in our heads as a representation of space and colour was one of the things that had occurred to me as soon as i saw OP as one of those things that's clearly instinctual rather than culturally acquired, but come to think of it the fact that we even perceive these bands of different wavelengths as *qualitatively* different things is there too
i wonder how it even evolved -
Defining what is meant by "instinct" and "instinctively" is much much much harder than I think most people realize.
It's almost as big of a mess as "natural"
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@futurebird@sauropods.win wdym this is just *common sense* /s
**high pitched whining resumes**
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Sometimes when someone hands me something to fix I can't explain what I'm doing. "I'm fixing it."
What is THAT about?
@futurebird @AbyssalRook There's a Philip K. Dick short story about that. It's about knowing how to evaluate the broken and what needs to happen to fix it, as opposed to a specific set of steps for that particular fix.
It's a skill under threat by throwaway culture.
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Red isn't as bad since I can show a color just about everyone will agree is red. I can also show "reds" that will start arguments, but there are some reds that are pretty universal. So you can say that red is distributed around these, except when it's contextual. As in "red hair" which is really a warm shade of light brown.
@froge @futurebird red is something where you MIGHT be able to get away with something like “photons between 600 and 700nm” (thereabouts)
Pink or purple, on the other hand…good luck!
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Red isn't as bad since I can show a color just about everyone will agree is red. I can also show "reds" that will start arguments, but there are some reds that are pretty universal. So you can say that red is distributed around these, except when it's contextual. As in "red hair" which is really a warm shade of light brown.
@futurebird @froge Also, while you might get agreement on defining what red is, you’re still going to get disagreements where people disagree on if a particular color is red, even when everyone agrees on the definition. Color blindness is at play, and other more subtle genetic differences.
And then there was The Dress, where we found that nearby colors profoundly affect our perception of color.
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Sometimes when someone hands me something to fix I can't explain what I'm doing. "I'm fixing it."
What is THAT about?
@futurebird @AbyssalRook For all of human history we can perceive, "learning how to do the thing" was mostly done by imitation, watching and trying to do the thing yourself.
Putting instructions into words, _like words_, is a relatively late, tacked-on thing most people aren't readily able to do well either in terms of writing or reading. (A huge part of school education is about following written instructions, and most adults remain terrible at it.)
Words get over-weighted as a thing.
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This is how it is used. But, what do we mean by "the weaver bird builds a nest by instinct"
One thing we mean that is clear, is that they are not taught how to do this by another bird. But if you watch a bird weave they will solve problems, make adjustments, get better at selecting materials. There is learning within the process.
@futurebird @AbyssalRook A lot of animals have innate urges that still require learning in order to be carried out. For instance, a human child will instinctively try to walk, but it takes a lot of practice to actually do it. Then there are migratory birds.
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Defining what is meant by "instinct" and "instinctively" is much much much harder than I think most people realize.
It's almost as big of a mess as "natural"
What about "reaction" and "responding consciously"? It's pretty hard to categorise from observation of others, but internally I think we have some sense of whether we've been triggered or whether we are making a decision from a conscious place.
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@futurebird @AbyssalRook A lot of animals have innate urges that still require learning in order to be carried out. For instance, a human child will instinctively try to walk, but it takes a lot of practice to actually do it. Then there are migratory birds.
@mansr @futurebird @AbyssalRook Do children actually have an actual instinct to walk or do they see all the adults around them doing it?
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What about "reaction" and "responding consciously"? It's pretty hard to categorise from observation of others, but internally I think we have some sense of whether we've been triggered or whether we are making a decision from a conscious place.
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Red isn't as bad since I can show a color just about everyone will agree is red. I can also show "reds" that will start arguments, but there are some reds that are pretty universal. So you can say that red is distributed around these, except when it's contextual. As in "red hair" which is really a warm shade of light brown.
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@mansr @futurebird @AbyssalRook Do children actually have an actual instinct to walk or do they see all the adults around them doing it?
@nazokiyoubinbou @futurebird @AbyssalRook Blind children also learn to walk.
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@nazokiyoubinbou @futurebird @AbyssalRook Blind children also learn to walk.
@mansr @futurebird @AbyssalRook Ok, I had a feeling, but then it struck me that there was that one variable that had to be eliminated.
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@nazokiyoubinbou @futurebird @AbyssalRook Blind children also learn to walk.
@mansr @nazokiyoubinbou @AbyssalRook
But inferring that people walk around probably doesn't require that you see them doing it. Our built environments suggest walking as a way to interact with them. And going on all fours hurts the back.
