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But why?
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Pathfinder 2.0 sidestepped this issue by having class-specific feats instead of subclasses. Just pick which features you want dude, no need to be silly about it. And you get a new choice of class specific feats often.
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Very true. If you want to just plug and play, and get going in 15 minutes without thinking about it too much, D&D is fine. When you start bumping against its limitations, like wanting to take multiple subclasses, it's time to consider a system with more freedom.I just want to point out, with GURPS templates, players can absolutely get a character ready to go pretty quickly without missing crucial skills or abilities. GURPS's Dungeon Fantasy line comes with a set of templates that mirror D&D's character classes; you follow the guide for your preferred archetype and put together a character that has what *you* want. If you want to mix and match between them, you just invest the points and pick it up; it even has some guidance on what likely will and won't synergize well. And if that's still too granular, the Delvers to Grow add-on lets you just select "packs" of upgrades, worth 25 character points each, and tailored to specific templates. This lets you roll up basic characters in about 20 minutes (10 if you know what you're doing!)
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I don't need to buy a set of books to give me permission to use my imagination, and I don't need it's permission to disregard rules that don't serve my campaign, or homebrew my own. Every ruleset of every tabletop game is optional. Sure, ignoring some rules can unravel the system, but every table is free to make that choice. I buy a set of books because I want an exhaustive set of balanced and play tested rules. I am under no obligation to use every rule, but I want to have them so I know if I choose to use them, or isn't going to break the balance. For instance, I've fully moved to GURPS. It has a reputation for being complicated because there are *lots* of mechanics available. I ignore the vast majority of them most of the time, but when a player wants to do something out of the ordinary, I can count on having a balanced mechanic available for guidance. I didn't have to worry about being too strict, or too lenient, or inconsistent the next time the same situation arises. 5e isn't "permissive", it's lazy game design. I quit after buying the Spelljammer set, which provided basically zero guidance for any of the actual spell jamming stuff. When the answer to every question is "The DM can decide to do it however they want :)”, you're not actually releasing a game system. Again, I don't need to buy a book to have permission to use my imagination however I want. I buy a book to give me balanced and playtested mechanics. WotC doesn't seem particularly interested in that.I think it's better to think of all the add-ons and supplements as GM inspiration, rather than hard and fast rules. Most everything in GURPS is set up to arrive at a skill roll or attribute modifier; so even if you don't remember a particular rule for a particular edge case, you can generally eyeball it and come up with a modifier pretty close to what's in the books. The books give a *lot* of guidance on how to reach that modifier, though; and give you enough information to feel comfortable coming up with your own modifiers outside of what they outline. I feel like that's a lot of what GURPS brings to the table - a simple system, with an internally consistent set of guides about how easy or hard a given action might be.
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I think it's better to think of all the add-ons and supplements as GM inspiration, rather than hard and fast rules. Most everything in GURPS is set up to arrive at a skill roll or attribute modifier; so even if you don't remember a particular rule for a particular edge case, you can generally eyeball it and come up with a modifier pretty close to what's in the books. The books give a *lot* of guidance on how to reach that modifier, though; and give you enough information to feel comfortable coming up with your own modifiers outside of what they outline. I feel like that's a lot of what GURPS brings to the table - a simple system, with an internally consistent set of guides about how easy or hard a given action might be.
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"Yeah, but neither does the damage I take!" _\*proceeds to do nothing but play on his phone for the session\*_ - The Hypothetical Fighter I Now Hate Also, you have an incredibly appropriate username for this conversation. Have you taken steps along the Path of the Muscle Wizard? (Swipe typing autocorrect turned "steps" into "steroids" three times in a row. I think my phone is becoming sentient.)No steroids, only muscle magic
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I just want to point out, with GURPS templates, players can absolutely get a character ready to go pretty quickly without missing crucial skills or abilities. GURPS's Dungeon Fantasy line comes with a set of templates that mirror D&D's character classes; you follow the guide for your preferred archetype and put together a character that has what *you* want. If you want to mix and match between them, you just invest the points and pick it up; it even has some guidance on what likely will and won't synergize well. And if that's still too granular, the Delvers to Grow add-on lets you just select "packs" of upgrades, worth 25 character points each, and tailored to specific templates. This lets you roll up basic characters in about 20 minutes (10 if you know what you're doing!)
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Pathfinder 2.0 sidestepped this issue by having class-specific feats instead of subclasses. Just pick which features you want dude, no need to be silly about it. And you get a new choice of class specific feats often.Mutants and Masterminds (and I think GURPS) sidesteps it entirely by having point buy with all the abilities and stats. You don't even have classes.
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No I want to see a programming language with multiclassing. Not just inheritance or Interfaces, but properly being able to make an object from any two classes.
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Warlock: I promised my soul in exchange for great power. Rogue: To which great power? Warlock: All of them. Let them fight over it when I am dead.Rogue: Waitasec, how many boons do you have?! Warlock: I dunno, a bunch. I lost count.
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Remember the one rule of D&D everybody forgets, no matter how much Gygax emphasized it: if you don't like a rule, don't use it in your campaign. In my game I allow any and all classes.
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Fiend: Look, I'll take what I can get. Can I get the legs? I'll take the legs. She can have the top part. Archfey: Did you just call the head the "top part"? That is so fucked up.
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Mutants and Masterminds (and I think GURPS) sidesteps it entirely by having point buy with all the abilities and stats. You don't even have classes.Sometimes restrictions breed creativity, though.
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I just want to point out, with GURPS templates, players can absolutely get a character ready to go pretty quickly without missing crucial skills or abilities. GURPS's Dungeon Fantasy line comes with a set of templates that mirror D&D's character classes; you follow the guide for your preferred archetype and put together a character that has what *you* want. If you want to mix and match between them, you just invest the points and pick it up; it even has some guidance on what likely will and won't synergize well. And if that's still too granular, the Delvers to Grow add-on lets you just select "packs" of upgrades, worth 25 character points each, and tailored to specific templates. This lets you roll up basic characters in about 20 minutes (10 if you know what you're doing!)You *could* do that, but then you have players who don't really know what their Traits do. My preferred method is to sit down with each player with GCS open and go through step by step: Basic Attributes, Advantages central to their character concept, Skills central to their character concept, then fill in some extras until they run out of points. I'm comfortable enough with the major options to walk them through it pretty quickly, although unless someone has a very clear idea of what they want to play, that can still take well over half an hour. Choosing everything forces the player to at least be aware of what abilities they have. With templates, they still need to familiarize themselves with the included Traits, and then inevitably fiddle with things a bit to get closer to their vision. Accounting for that, I don't think they have much time unless you're playing a very generic character and rely on the GM to keep track of your abilities.
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Or Pathfinder for Savage Worlds, which is Savage Worlds with Pathfinder classes converted into Edges (limited to one per rank).
No shade to people who do like either (my wife likes macs and my brother likes D&D!) They just both feel so constraining to me, and it feels like that's kind of the point?