If you enjoy factual take downs of poorly thought-out evolutionary biology theories you'll like this video that takes apart a fringe theory about neanderthals being some kind of evil ape super-predators.

myrmepropagandist

I think it's really sad that neanderthals aren't around anymore, I think we could learn a lot by interacting with humans who were more significantly different from anyone who is alive today.

David Penfold :verified:

@futurebird They live on in my genes, apparently.

myrmepropagandist

With "theories" like this about human origins it's worth thinking about what need such folk tales fill. That's what this theory is, a folk tale.

For some people this lore is needed because they don't like (human) evolution and neanderthals kind of force us to realize that, yes, humans also evolved just like every other living thing. For others I think it's about some deep impulse to separate everything into in-groups and out-groups.

But, there are no clear borders.

myrmepropagandist

@davep

Yeah but at 5 percent TOPS (whatever "5 percent") means.

Many people have a few neanderthal ancestors, but they are greatly outnumbered by the skinny sapiens sapiens ancestors.

myrmepropagandist

I can sympathize with being annoyed or disappointed that our closest relatives are other primates. I'm not a huge fan of primates generally. Mostly because they are similar to people, but different enough that the less ... admirable traits stand out more.

It's hard not to look at chimps and think of how badly they fail at being human. This is also very silly since we fail very badly at being chimps (and chimps might even be able to appreciate this... certainly cats can ...)

Quinn Norton

@futurebird i like bonobos, they give me some hope for the extended family.

Nazo

@futurebird It has been forever since I read about that scientist who lived among apes for some years, but I think somewhat was actually said to the effect of what you just said: the apes felt the human was kind of bad at being an ape.

I think you have a good point besides. It's a bit of the uncanny valley effect perhaps. If we were bug beings then we might find our evolutionary similar cousins to be unpleasant and might like apes more.

myrmepropagandist

@quinn

I get annoyed since they are always having sex over everything. It's just gross. Presumably they see it differently, but I blush when I see ants mating.

🌈Magical Thinking

@futurebird @quinn

Mandrill bums?

myrmepropagandist

@magicalthinking @quinn

Mandrills don't squick me out since they don't seem like little hairy people, they are majestic and goofy in their own way.

Lien Rag

@futurebird

The idea of different species of humans is bonkers¹ and I don't know any book² that tackles correctly the wrecking ball that it is to lazy antiracism...

¹ not as "factually false" of course, but as "doesn't fit with the informal consensus about what humanity is"
² except of course Vercors' "Les animaux dénaturés", written at a time where racism wasn't really condemned, and which is consequently a bit ambiguous on that aspect

llewelly

@futurebird from about age 10 to about age 30, I genuinely thought primates were among the most interesting of animals. Ironically, or appropriately, I don't know which, for most of that part of my life, animals were only a tertiary interest of mine. As I became more interested in animals generally, I became much less interested in primates specifically.

myrmepropagandist

@lienrag

I agree. It's not trivial to grapple with people who are not sapiens sapiens. I think either they just become too much like regular humans, or authors try to make analogies about racism or war or bigotry which can be either good or bad in their political implications but miss what I think is really interesting.

Neanderthals *were* people but they also were not like any people who are alive today at a fundamental level. We have no idea what that could mean.

myrmepropagandist

@lienrag

If I'm honest I just want to meet some real neanderthals. And not some genetic reconstruction ... Creatures are more than their genome. You couldn't "meet" a neanderthal without the context of their culture and history.

Maybe they would be scary, maybe impossible to really communicate with, maybe they would just be like the person next door. Probably a mix of all of these things.

I do think one book comes close: The Terraformers by Annalee Newitz who is on here I think @annaleen

Inga stands with 🇺🇦 🇵🇸

@futurebird wait, aren't we partially neanderthals too? It's just that instead of two separate groups only one mixed group exists now?

myrmepropagandist

@lienrag @annaleen

I read the book last year and enjoyed it a lot. The neanderthals are more on the "just like us" end of things, but they do have some very different emotional and moral landscapes. I especially enjoyed the neanderthal who got exhausted from how much the sapiens sapiens would keep running their mouths. It hinted at a different pace of thinking, more considered and deliberate. But, also just slower and less excitable and bold.

myrmepropagandist

@IngaLovinde

Some but not all humans have a small part of more recent neanderthal ancestry. 700,000 years back we all have some common ancestor.

When sapiens sapiens moved out of Africa they encountered humans (neanderthals and others) who left before and blended but mostly replaced them. We don't know how this went down exactly.

But, it's not like anyone has more than the equivalent of one or two great-great-great-great ancestors who would be neanderthals.

That's my understanding?

Michael Busch

@nazokiyoubinbou @futurebird

Never try to wrestle a chimpanzee.

Nazo

@michael_w_busch @futurebird Apes have significantly more muscle strength to body weight ratio than we do. It's part of the cost of so many of our calories going to our brains instead of our muscles from what I've read.

Michael Busch

@nazokiyoubinbou @futurebird

Chimps win at strength contests.

Humans win at distance running.

Consequence of us having evolved to run around throwing things at stuff.

Chebucto Regional Softball Club

If you enjoy factual take downs of poorly thought-out evolutionary biology theories you'll like this video that takes apart a fringe theory about neanderthals being some kind of evil ape super-predators.