@futurebird no great insight to be honest. If I was explaining something I tell them to first listen to what I have to say, and later read carefully the error message. Recently I've witnessed students sometimes misread severely what to write (they confuse upper case I's and lower case l's), but mostly because they don't even try to make sense of what they're writing: they're just copying without thinking.

Example of the problem:

Me: "OK everyone. Next we'll make this into a function so we can simply call it each time-"

Student 1: "It won't work." (student who wouldn't interrupt like this normally)

Student 2: "Mine's broken too!"

Student 3: "It says error. I have the EXACT same thing as you but it's not working."

This makes me feel overloaded and grouchy. Too many questions at once. What I want them to do is wait until the explanation is done and ask when I'm walking around.

Sometimes when you are teaching you need to stop the lecture, change the plan because there is an error in the worksheet, or the problem is too hard.

What's really annoying me is that some students think that when their code doesn't run this is "a problem with the lesson" I should stop everything until we fix it.

But, my lesson is fine. The student just made a typo.

They are so focused on the code running they aren't listening to the lesson which would teach them WHY it's not running.

Wanted: Advice from CS teachers

When teaching a group of students new to coding I've noticed that my students who are normally very good about not calling out during class will shout "it's not working!" the moment their code hits an error and fails to run. They want me to fix it right away. This makes for too many interruptions since I'm easy to nerd snipe in this way.

I think I need to let them know that fixing errors that keep the code from running is literally what I'm trying to teach.

@jenesuispasgoth Nailed it: "copying without thinking" . @futurebird

@hakona I'm OK with the copying part to be honest (including typos). However, I'm far less OK when it comes to figuring out what went wrong and the students declare that the code isn't working. I used to sit with the students and basically point out the error message, have them read it in full, then if they still didn't get it (remember, English is not their first language), literally copy the message in a search engine to show them how to get the explanation.

@futurebird

Wanted: Advice from CS teachers

When teaching a group of students new to coding I've noticed that my students who are normally very good about not calling out during class will shout "it's not working!" the moment their code hits an error and fails to run. They want me to fix it right away. This makes for too many interruptions since I'm easy to nerd snipe in this way.

I think I need to let them know that fixing errors that keep the code from running is literally what I'm trying to teach.

@david_chisnall

Tangentially related:

"AI can write code so why teach how to code?"

"Great point! It can write an essay too, so why teach how to read."

Like. We've had calculators for decades and still teach arithmetic. And functionally the average person needs to know probably more about mathematics and needs to read more than they did a century ago. The same will apply for code.

Wanted: Advice from CS teachers

When teaching a group of students new to coding I've noticed that my students who are normally very good about not calling out during class will shout "it's not working!" the moment their code hits an error and fails to run. They want me to fix it right away. This makes for too many interruptions since I'm easy to nerd snipe in this way.

I think I need to let them know that fixing errors that keep the code from running is literally what I'm trying to teach.

• Recent CS education research suggests that functions are one of the hardest intro programming concepts for most students, and shouldn't be introduced till some other concepts are mastered first (search "concept inventories for introductory computer programming"). It can help to first practice associative arrays/hashtables/dictionaries. Modularization into functions is harder still. The fact that many of your students are struggling with creating a function might indicate that they haven't mastered the concept yet and you might do well to back up a bit. If they need some remedial work, I cannot praise Parson's puzzles enough
• When running a lab-style section, where students are actively working on something with your support, I think it helps to interleave lecture time, work time, and debrief time. When you lecture, lecture rules (including controlling when interruptions can happen) apply. Work time is when you let interruptions happen more freely as you walk around to see how folks are doing. When I run such things I tell the students at the beginning of the section what the plan is. After a week or two they get it. I think it's useful to keep each work session on the shorter side, 10-15 minutes, with a well-scoped task and well-defined goal, and then have a debrief afterward where students can describe their experience, vent, brag, what have you. That way they know they'll have opportunities to talk and might be less inclined to shout out randomly
• If you don't have assistants to help you, recruiting other students to help field questions can be very effective. In the past I've had success dividing students into pods of 2 or 3, but only after observing the class for a few weeks. I strategically designed each pod to have at least one student who seemed to be on top of the material and another who seemed to be struggling. This setup requires communicating with the students regularly and adjusting the group assignments throughout the course, but it can lighten the load quite a bit, especially after the students get to know each other. I design classes such that the first few weeks are for setting the stage and warming up, and for me to get to know the students
• I've found it can be helpful to tell students some variation of "I know it's frustrating that your code doesn't work. Even today, code I write doesn't usually work the way I want on the first go. This is an experience you're likely to have the rest of your life when writing code. One thing to take away from this course is how not to be set back by this feeling. It's a normal part of the experience of coding, and it's telling us something". If that lands you can follow up by asking them what they think their frustration/struggle/what have you is telling them. The self reflection can be helpful and you can learn important things about your students this way (it can also lead to awesome discussions). Some students react very positively to hearing that this is a normal part of the process (they think there's something wrong with them, or that they are doing something wrong, if they're feeling frustrated).

Things to Try:
* look for typos
* look at what the error message indicates.

If these don't work consider reverting your last changes to the last working version of your code. Then try making the changes again, but be more careful.

If you can't revert the changes, start removing bits of the code systematically. Remove the things you think might cause the error and run the code again. Isolate the change or code that causes the problem.

You can be a great programmer.

2/2

Wanted: Advice from CS teachers

When teaching a group of students new to coding I've noticed that my students who are normally very good about not calling out during class will shout "it's not working!" the moment their code hits an error and fails to run. They want me to fix it right away. This makes for too many interruptions since I'm easy to nerd snipe in this way.

I think I need to let them know that fixing errors that keep the code from running is literally what I'm trying to teach.

My students aren't lazy, but they *can* be a little perfectionist: scared to take risks or sit with not having the answer right away.

They are really upset when their code won't run... but staying calm and *systematically* looking for the cause of the problem, knowing that if you just work through the tree of possible causes you will find it is not something they are good at.

I think I need to teach this.

Maybe I will give them some broken code and we will find the errors together.

@futurebird

Now I'm curious about whether LLMs' code compiles and executes error-free on their first attempt.

(Aside from the question of whether it meets requirements, as originally intended; always the hard part).

@david_chisnall

@futurebird

Software developer trainer here.

Silly question, but do they read the *entire* error description? And once they solved it do they understand the relationship between the cause, the message, and the fix?

It might be worthwhile to force them to slow down by asking them to write down the entire message on paper.

Try making a game out of it: Who can generate the strangest error message with the fewest amount of “bad” code.

@futurebird

When they reach more advanced levels, you will have to teach them to step even farther back, look outside the frame of the monitor, and account for a different layer of the stack.

What if your code works, so well in fact, that it threatens the empires of incumbent elites? What if they break down your door, unperson you, arrest you illegally dozens of times, jail you, brutalize you, deny you legal and medical care, and leave you in pain?

1/n

@EricLawton @david_chisnall

"Now I'm curious about whether LLMs' code compiles and executes error-free on their first attempt."

At first it did not, but they have added a routine to run it through a compiler until it at least runs without syntax errors and probably produces output that seems like what you asked for for a limited example of input.

This is a bolted on extra check, not some improvement in the base LLM.

But some people are acting like it does represent advances in the LLM.

@EricLawton @david_chisnall

"Now I'm curious about whether LLMs' code compiles and executes error-free on their first attempt."

At first it did not, but they have added a routine to run it through a compiler until it at least runs without syntax errors and probably produces output that seems like what you asked for for a limited example of input.

This is a bolted on extra check, not some improvement in the base LLM.

But some people are acting like it does represent advances in the LLM.

@futurebird @david_chisnall In my (very limited) experience, all that resulted in is pseudocode with // before each line

@EricLawton @david_chisnall

"Now I'm curious about whether LLMs' code compiles and executes error-free on their first attempt."

At first it did not, but they have added a routine to run it through a compiler until it at least runs without syntax errors and probably produces output that seems like what you asked for for a limited example of input.

This is a bolted on extra check, not some improvement in the base LLM.

But some people are acting like it does represent advances in the LLM.