With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!!
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@taylorlorenz Users of social media have been *deskilled* to the point where they expect a platform to essentially do everything for them: grab an app, put in your name, maybe tap some circles or something, and bang zoom, you get a feed.
The barrier is that Mastodon--and to a lesser extent Bluesky--are slightly less easy. Now, I'd argue that if you take five minutes to choose an instance that matches your tastes, it provides a feed right away, and then you can build your follow list, but...
@taylorlorenz For a lot of people, "choose instance -> get feed -> build follow list" feels like it's in the wrong order. They're used to an algorithm "serving" them.
So. If the goal is to get new users onto the platform, then what you want to build is a gateway that says, "What are your interests?" and then new users put in three (let's say), and then it offers a few instances that match their interests, and they pick one. I think something like that would make them feel "served."
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@stefan @taylorlorenz Yeah, I think that's it. People want (among other things) community, and having an entire community move here at once makes a lot more sense than having individuals try to build up a community. That's why, when I tried mastodon in 2019/2020, it never took off for me; but during the twitter implosion of 2022, when a bunch of my twitter-using friends moved here as well, I stuck around. The forkiverse is just the latest example of that.
@Andres4NY Absolutely! It also helps with the choice paralysis of having to pick a server.
I think overall it just makes sense to promote communities rather than bog people down with technical details of how the fediverse works. (There's always time for that later.)
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The lack of an algorithm is the biggest advantage and the biggest disadvantage - it makes it hard to discover new content and people to follow. I know people are working on "starter packs" for Mastodon like they have on BlueSky, which I think will help.
But I wonder if we could find other ways to make discovery easier - a "followed by people you follow" or "favorited by people you follow" feed, or something. Also, I wonder if the interface shouldn't suggest boosting a post when you favorite it... We need more people boosting more stuff, with no algorithm.
You have to follow 200+ people to get a decently full feed on Mastodon, and everyone has to boost a lot. Reducing the effort required to do those things would increase engagement on Mastodon, I'm pretty sure.
People don't understand the basics of a federated system. To boost is to spread content across the network, not just to share it with your very own contacts.
It's crucial for the fedi!
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@taylorlorenz For a lot of people, "choose instance -> get feed -> build follow list" feels like it's in the wrong order. They're used to an algorithm "serving" them.
So. If the goal is to get new users onto the platform, then what you want to build is a gateway that says, "What are your interests?" and then new users put in three (let's say), and then it offers a few instances that match their interests, and they pick one. I think something like that would make them feel "served."
@taylorlorenz Also, one-button transfer of accounts from one instance to another. If it's not ultra-convenient then it's not really a feature.
That's assuming really do want Mastodon to get bigger. If what they actually want is for Mastodon to only be populated with people who "pass the test" of getting on Mastodon, then there's nothing to change. They don't want a gateway. They just want a gate.
IMO.
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@hfinyow @taylorlorenz at the same time, this isn't a problem with email. Everyone uses email and they're not tripped up by there being dozens of email service providers. The big problem is Mastodon resists commercialization by its nature so there's no giant corpo spending big bucks pushing the "one" canonical version that everyone flocks to
@jbd @hfinyow @taylorlorenz Counter to your counter: most people use one of, what, four different email services? Email hasn't been captured like social media was, but they're working on it.
I do agree, though. Mastodon is anti-commercial, and people are used to for-profit social media, which has its own structures. People are accustomed to that, and even if it's crap, it's what they know.
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With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!! I love this app and I really think the decentralized model is the best for social media.
Still, people don’t want to join! What do you think Mastodon’s biggest barriers are to courting new users? What could be done to improve the product and grow the user base in a positive way?
@taylorlorenz all of the above points, plus getting used to posting with ALT text or not being boosted as much.
I would not want the platform to grow in adoption to the detriment of accessibility. -
@taylorlorenz Black users have consistently reported hostility
I don't think this is the "biggest barrier" to reaching new users.
The biggest barriers are:
* Popular content creators who ought to care about building independent social media don't know it exists or why it's important. What if Emma from MR were here? For example.
* Sign up remains hard. I know why people don't want to integrate google auth... but if it were an option for some servers it'd make a big difference.
* UI needs more work. -
@taylorlorenz one thing, the decentralized nature means there is perhaps too much choice. Do you get an account on mastodon.social, mstdn.ca, mastodon.com, tusky.whatever.... And also what app do you use to access it? When there was Twitter, there was one official app. With Mastodon, there are a multitude. Sometimes too much choice is counterproductive.
@hfinyow @taylorlorenz I hear what you're saying. You're not wrong about the "there's no one app" thing. But at the same time:
It's not an app. It's a web site. It works great on a browser. My solution, then, would be to make an "app" that's really just a web app. It leads you to a browser instance of Mastodon. Your app will get "upgraded" when Mastodon is upgraded because it's just a website. That should be the default.
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@taylorlorenz Black users have consistently reported hostility
If the fedi were more popular it'd be more diverse and the lack of diversity bothers me more than any "hostility" ... which every online space has.
I worry that the focus on "hostility" points to a problem that's hard to solve.
There are some good idea for moderation that could help, such as better reporting and sharing tools between servers. But I think the login/sign-up issues are much bigger.
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There really is a HOA here even if it's not fashionable to mention it. And there is a harassment problem that is made worse by no reply controls and the terrible, terrible misfeature of followers-only replies.
@taylorlorenz@osma @taylorlorenz That's a big part of it, yes. Not to get all corporate marketer on this, but if Mastodon actually made a space that was positively welcoming to Blacksky (formerly Black Twitter), that would pull huge amounts of people on, and not just Black users (although it would be fantastic to have more Black users!).
The "problem" is Black users talk to each other, and Mastodon fucked up hard when they first came here. It would take a LOT to get them back.
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@taylorlorenz one thing, the decentralized nature means there is perhaps too much choice. Do you get an account on mastodon.social, mstdn.ca, mastodon.com, tusky.whatever.... And also what app do you use to access it? When there was Twitter, there was one official app. With Mastodon, there are a multitude. Sometimes too much choice is counterproductive.
@hfinyow @taylorlorenz I think I'd suggest people to just start on mastodon.social. don't worry about instances to start with, as it's very easy to migrate later. And then once they got the basic hang of it, tell them like "oh, btw as you're really into literature/art/music/tech/... did you see this other instance? I think it'd match really well with your profile. And it'd help the network, too, if you'd chose a smaller, more individual instance!"
Keep it simple to start with, don't overwhelm. -
With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!! I love this app and I really think the decentralized model is the best for social media.
Still, people don’t want to join! What do you think Mastodon’s biggest barriers are to courting new users? What could be done to improve the product and grow the user base in a positive way?
Maybe change the name Mastodon to something lighter.
Compare the mental image Mastodon produces to TikTok, Twitter, BlueSky.
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With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!! I love this app and I really think the decentralized model is the best for social media.
Still, people don’t want to join! What do you think Mastodon’s biggest barriers are to courting new users? What could be done to improve the product and grow the user base in a positive way?
@taylorlorenz i think at heart, most people don't want to out in that much effort to lurk. I wonder what proportion of social media use is passive consumption.
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@taylorlorenz honestly? The chance of becoming a famous and/or wealthy internet influencer is much lower here. I think that is a big deterrent for people, whether they're willing to admit it or not.
As for what can be done about that? Nothing, really, because I think that's what makes it so appealing to the rest of us.
@brandonscript @taylorlorenz This is the one angle that I'll agree that it ain't broke so don't fix it. Mastodon is designed to resist viral posts. I have *conversations* on Mastodon. On Twitter, I ~performed~, and the same is true of Bluesky because it was deliberately a Twitter clone.
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@taylorlorenz Have you heard/read about the Forkiverse? The Mastodon server started by three popular podcasters that has grown to almost 10k members in just about two weeks.
I actually put together https://stefanbohacek.com/blog/fediverse-an-overview-for-community-organizers/ using it as a case study, hoping to maybe start reaching out to people who already have a following and could be interested in replicating this experiment.
Once influencer realize that an own instance as a paid subscription service for their fans means income, the fedi becomes a rocket that goes of like "a divers fart".
Imagine Taylor swift charging the price of a cheeseburger a month for having a profile on social.taylorswift.com being able to get exclusive content by following her #castoPod podcast server cast.taylorswift.com?
Years ago hosting an instances was complicated, today you get it with a few clicks.
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With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!! I love this app and I really think the decentralized model is the best for social media.
Still, people don’t want to join! What do you think Mastodon’s biggest barriers are to courting new users? What could be done to improve the product and grow the user base in a positive way?
@taylorlorenz I love Mastodon and I completely agree with you about decentralization being the way to go. People are fiercely addicted to the big apps, and for good reason, so I can't push. I just float the idea and let them consider it.
It may be partly a matter of critical mass, partly because it's too different, but perhaps it's also because Twitter-like apps like Mastodon just aren't everyone's cup of tea. So I've started matching their style: Loops for TikTok fans, Pixelfed for Instagram fans, etc.
The fediverse is still pretty young so I'm excited to see it grow.
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The first hurdle for a new user is deciding on what server to join, without knowing what that means or how to decide between them.
Second, they have to figure out who to follow and how to curate their feed to the point where it's rewarding, before losing interest.
Third, Mastodon doesn't have communities / groups, which is what a lot of users use especially Facebook for.
Fourth, the tools for discoverability are weak. Sure, there's /explore and hashtags, but not much else.
@skjeggtroll @taylorlorenz I do not disagree with you broadly speaking, but the one thing I will say is that we do have communities in the form of your instance's feed, which is why it would be great if there were a truly user-friendly way to match people to instances.
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@taylorlorenz I feel like the only way left is to set up huge armadas of influencer bots from the established social networks to draw people in and then delete them all once we've reached a certain threshold of network effect.
We have a winner
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@taylorlorenz I love this app. When I tell other people about it they say the image it conjures up is massive, slow and extinct and that's not instantly appealing. You have to get to know this place. The exploration, the finding and discovering is what's so exciting. But it's not a shiny bauble.
@Jude_theone479001 @taylorlorenz This is very well said. It does actually take work to *build* your place, here, and that's rewarding in a way that "user friendliness" often is not.
I will say this, though: Bluesky users created "starter packs" and block lists and stuff like that, partly because, like Twitter before it, at least at first, when users innovated (eg, hasghtags), the admins embraced it. I'm not seeing that on Mastodon. I do hope the new governance model makes that better.
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With all the tiktok drama I have been telling people Mastodon is still here and kicking!! I love this app and I really think the decentralized model is the best for social media.
Still, people don’t want to join! What do you think Mastodon’s biggest barriers are to courting new users? What could be done to improve the product and grow the user base in a positive way?
@taylorlorenz The majority of people can not and will not accept anything that frees them from conformist slavery. They never have, and never will. We'll always be cursed by kings, churches, record labels, whatever force there is that allows people to be conformists. It's literally what most people want.
This sort won't try Mastodon any more than they would stop buying number one records or skip watching the Superbowl even if they don't care about football.
