Take a look at "Life, take two!" At first I thought she was exaggerating.
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I grew up homeschooled in a conservative religious household for most of my k-12 and this rings true for many families I knew.
my parents were not against women going to college, but my dad believed (and still believes) he had influence and authority over who his daughters marry. (it backfired on him pretty hard and I'm surprised they haven't cut him off)
another aspect of this that is very pervasive in conservative christianity is the notion that couples shouldn't have separate bank accounts.
many treat a separate account with suspicion and indication of cheating.
my wife and I got out of that culture but we both felt it was crazy af at the time and kept our separate accounts and added a joint instead. there's a strong religious pressure to keep the peace though, so people usually just get along with their fellow church people who have insane abusive ideas.
it's also really hard to notice when you're in it because they equate the abusive behavior with divine guidance. I grew up with significant cognitive dissonance.
I went to public school my last two years of highschool. special thanks to my 11th grade English teacher who gave me the intellectual tools to eventually get out (like the word cognitive dissonance itself).
Wanting someone to be free and independent *is* loving them.
It would feel hollow if I thought the only reason my husband was around was because in some sense he had no real choice. I don't think he'd enjoy being with me either if I was just... stuck. Not here because there isn't anywhere else in the world I'd rather be.
And if something happens to either of us it feels good to know one of us could still make it.
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Take a look at "Life, take two!" At first I thought she was exaggerating. She talks about how her pastor discouraged her from going to college (!) from doing anything that might lead to financial independence.
She listened to that bad advice, found herself trapped. Then she got out. She has little positive to say about marriage.
The idea of discouraging someone from going to college was so alien at first I didn't believe her. But I think this is really happening.
@futurebird Totalitarian societies have even gone so far as to explicitly prohibit disfavoured social classes from pursuing education. Happened in both USSR and Nazi Germany. And, of course, USA has a whole network of universities originally dedicated to educating Black people because they used to be all-but-explicitly prohibited from attending the "ordinary" universities that have sometimes liked to pretend to have been unmarked by race.
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This "trad wife" stuff marketed to young women and men is based mostly on aesthetics and not practical realities like the ones you describe.
A postcard image of a woman taking care of happy children. The husband working hard, paying for everything. A real partnership. Then they lie say "the left doesn't want you to have this"
Young people see that trusting relationship. Financial stability. Shared independence. We all want that, right? Independence is the foundation.
Real love is only possible when people are free. Real love is only possible when it's a free choice made by independent people.
My great grandmother, married at 16 did not have much love in that marriage. At best it was hopefully polite, tolerable. I look at her eyes in the photos and I don't know if it was even that. I do not want our daughters to live that way. Not ever again.
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My mom? By then women could own property and have credit cards. My mom was the first through the gate to get her hands on all those things and grandma was right behind her cheering her on.
My dad loves how she takes over all of the financial matters. He worked as a chemist, she became a college teacher. They still love spending all their time together. I think of my husband and how I hope we can grow old together like that. That's a good template.
@futurebird @artemis That is a fantastic template!
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@futurebird
Okay, also, as someone who grew up in right-wing fundamentalism... You are genuine when you say that the idea of discouraging women from education was so foreign as to be nearly unbelievable?That's *wild* to me that that is your experience. Goes to show how insulated "insular" communities like mine really were.
@artemis @futurebird
In my family (white, English, middle-class, British colonial descent in Africa), my generation was the first to finish university degrees. My dad and uncle both dropped out to work. My mom had to fight her parents to go to teacher-training college because it was 'a waste of time' to educate girls past school.Women's education being less important is still a pretty dominant idea in a lot of South African society. It's just less explicit now.
(Edited grammar)
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@artemis @futurebird
In my family (white, English, middle-class, British colonial descent in Africa), my generation was the first to finish university degrees. My dad and uncle both dropped out to work. My mom had to fight her parents to go to teacher-training college because it was 'a waste of time' to educate girls past school.Women's education being less important is still a pretty dominant idea in a lot of South African society. It's just less explicit now.
(Edited grammar)
@artemis @futurebird
Encouragingly, I was told that having a higher education fetches a higher Lobola* in modern Zulu society. A young male Zulu colleague of mine explained it to me when I asked when he and his fiancée planned to marry. He had to save up for longer, because she got her degree!*( This is the price paid by the groom to the bride's family to get permission to marry her, still expressed in head of cattle, but paid in equivalent worth, now.)
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My great grand mother got married at 16 for the first time. She had three husbands. They were all in their 40s and 50s.
If she was not married she would have lost the little scrap of land they owned, against all odds in NC. If her children didn't have a mother who was married to their father they would face social exclusion.
She understood this and worked within it. Kept the land, improved it. Raised a massive family.
The template was hardened. Unhelpful. She was so brave.
Your great-grandmother was Celie Harris Johnson ????
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Your great-grandmother was Celie Harris Johnson ????
No. LOL. That book just has a lot of themes.
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These things can be easier and better when you aren't alone. That's what a marriage can be. Two people with shared values who are happier and stronger together than alone. There are a lot of social templates that cast women into one role and men into another. These roles are not equal and the role as cast for men has more freedoms, although both are constricted.
Have there been women who were happy homemakers untroubled by the world? Yes. There have also been women exploited by that dream.
I have seen a statistic that on average millennial dads spend almost as much time with their children as boomer moms.
The majority are shifting the roles to more equal ones whether MAGA like it or not. Which is probably what they're so upset about.
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@artemis @futurebird
Encouragingly, I was told that having a higher education fetches a higher Lobola* in modern Zulu society. A young male Zulu colleague of mine explained it to me when I asked when he and his fiancée planned to marry. He had to save up for longer, because she got her degree!*( This is the price paid by the groom to the bride's family to get permission to marry her, still expressed in head of cattle, but paid in equivalent worth, now.)
Americans will look at this and call it "primitive" and they are doing the same things.
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Life happens. You might have the perfect partner and then suddenly they are gone.
Happened to my grandmother. Three kids, has just quit her job and sold the house in Seattle to buy a farm, she was no farmer grandpa was. Then bammo he nearly dies from an infection and she had to scramble to unsell the house reclaim her job and support the family for a couple of years while he recovers. He later died at 65 she lived to 101, her own pension kept her comfortable until death.
@MCDuncanLab @futurebird
Or on the other hand you might have been raised believing in "traditional family values", and think you married a wonderful husband young, until a decade or two later he throws you out for a younger woman, leaving you without support and job experience.Either way, having your own job outside homemaking and your own bank account sure looks like a good idea.
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Take a look at "Life, take two!" At first I thought she was exaggerating. She talks about how her pastor discouraged her from going to college (!) from doing anything that might lead to financial independence.
She listened to that bad advice, found herself trapped. Then she got out. She has little positive to say about marriage.
The idea of discouraging someone from going to college was so alien at first I didn't believe her. But I think this is really happening.
@futurebird I’ll recommend the books “A Well Trained Wife” by Tia Levings for more insight on this, and “Uncultured” by Daniella Mestyanek Young for more on these topics.
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Take a look at "Life, take two!" At first I thought she was exaggerating. She talks about how her pastor discouraged her from going to college (!) from doing anything that might lead to financial independence.
She listened to that bad advice, found herself trapped. Then she got out. She has little positive to say about marriage.
The idea of discouraging someone from going to college was so alien at first I didn't believe her. But I think this is really happening.
@futurebird
On that note: -
Americans will look at this and call it "primitive" and they are doing the same things.
@futurebird @artemis That's why I am so grateful to have lived in a truly multicultural society, where cultural traditions are still largely observed in the different cultures.
Explicit cultural traditions are so much easier to examine, update, appreciate, follow or refute than hidden assumptions and expectations.
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Take a look at "Life, take two!" At first I thought she was exaggerating. She talks about how her pastor discouraged her from going to college (!) from doing anything that might lead to financial independence.
She listened to that bad advice, found herself trapped. Then she got out. She has little positive to say about marriage.
The idea of discouraging someone from going to college was so alien at first I didn't believe her. But I think this is really happening.
@futurebird I could MAYBE see an argument to be made if it was a financial question - is it worth going 6 figures into debt to get a piece of paper you never use? But that's going to be very person specific based upon what their dreams and aspirations are. And it'd still be best to keep some sort of plan B around, be it a trade or a 2 year degree or something.
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@MCDuncanLab @futurebird
Or on the other hand you might have been raised believing in "traditional family values", and think you married a wonderful husband young, until a decade or two later he throws you out for a younger woman, leaving you without support and job experience.Either way, having your own job outside homemaking and your own bank account sure looks like a good idea.
Yeah that’s my other grandmother. But no on goes into marriage thinking they will be betrayed.
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@futurebird I could MAYBE see an argument to be made if it was a financial question - is it worth going 6 figures into debt to get a piece of paper you never use? But that's going to be very person specific based upon what their dreams and aspirations are. And it'd still be best to keep some sort of plan B around, be it a trade or a 2 year degree or something.
The question about if taking on a loan is a good idea to pay for college should be separate from the question of if it's a good idea to go or not at all.
I think it's better to be debt free and have a less prestigious institution than big debt and a fancy name... but much of this depends on if you are "good at school" and other questions.
And really college should be free. If we had any sense.
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The question about if taking on a loan is a good idea to pay for college should be separate from the question of if it's a good idea to go or not at all.
I think it's better to be debt free and have a less prestigious institution than big debt and a fancy name... but much of this depends on if you are "good at school" and other questions.
And really college should be free. If we had any sense.
@futurebird 100%
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Take a look at "Life, take two!" At first I thought she was exaggerating. She talks about how her pastor discouraged her from going to college (!) from doing anything that might lead to financial independence.
She listened to that bad advice, found herself trapped. Then she got out. She has little positive to say about marriage.
The idea of discouraging someone from going to college was so alien at first I didn't believe her. But I think this is really happening.
@futurebird it's rare to hear anyone in the states bring this up, but it's very unusual to be able to migrate freely to another country unless you have a 4 year university degree, which is probably one of the best reasons to try and obtain one
the fact that most countries settled upon this insane restriction is its own can of worms spanning all the way back to nativism but the fact remains, so i suspect anyone who discourages university for any group of people
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@futurebird @artemis That is a fantastic template!
I know my mom and dad love each other because that woman would be gone in a heartbeat if she didn't. Gone to the other side of the earth never to be seen again.
Heck she might leave if she got sick of me. It's sad she didn't grow up in the era of memes. "hit da bricks" is in that woman's soul.
