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Chebucto Regional Softball Club

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  3. If a person were a time traveler how might that show up in their skeleton, eg in the isotopic analysis of their teeth?
A forum for discussing and organizing recreational softball and baseball games and leagues in the greater Halifax area.

If a person were a time traveler how might that show up in their skeleton, eg in the isotopic analysis of their teeth?

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  • Michael BuschM Michael Busch

    @futurebird

    I assume you already know about the Baby Tooth Survey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Tooth_Survey .

    Deb ChachraD This user is from outside of this forum
    Deb ChachraD This user is from outside of this forum
    Deb Chachra
    wrote last edited by
    #51

    @michael_w_busch @futurebird Sr-90 was my first thought too, not least because it accumulates in bones so it would be in the skeleton (and I *did* know about the baby teeth) and wouldn’t be found at all pre-1945. So my next thought was that I needed to know when the travelers were coming from, and also when the bones were found.

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    • GraydonG Graydon

      @futurebird Fluorine in the teeth; dental work generally. (Orthodontics leave traces! Implants on titanium posts rather more so.)

      The other thing is that this kind of thing is generally very coarse; "its diet was C4 plants" has been the result for jaguar skeletal remains. (They were ritual jaguars fed on corn-fed turkeys, far as anyone can tell.) Absolute proof of time travel would take something impossible at tech level like that titanium post.

      Deb ChachraD This user is from outside of this forum
      Deb ChachraD This user is from outside of this forum
      Deb Chachra
      wrote last edited by
      #52

      @graydon @futurebird There are many naturally occurring fluorine sources (that’s how we figured out that it helps prevent caries) so its presence wouldn’t be at all definitive.

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      • Clifton RoystonC Clifton Royston

        @futurebird

        For time travelers who were alive in the 1950s-1960s:

        Traces of zirconium-90 in the teeth and bones - looks like that would be the end of the strontium-90 decay products.

        There are plenty of other radioactive isotopes, of course, but strontium is special because biological processes react with it like calcium, meaning it rapidly gets incorporated into bones and teeth.

        CavyherdC This user is from outside of this forum
        CavyherdC This user is from outside of this forum
        Cavyherd
        wrote last edited by
        #53

        @CliftonR @futurebird

        <<tries to eye zirconium crowns suspiciously>>

        <<sprains neck in the attempt>>

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        • myrmepropagandistF myrmepropagandist

          If a person were a time traveler how might that show up in their skeleton, eg in the isotopic analysis of their teeth?

          David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)D This user is from outside of this forum
          David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)D This user is from outside of this forum
          David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)
          wrote last edited by
          #54

          @futurebird Fillings in the teeth or false teeth are a common trope in science fiction for spotting time travellers. So are other surgical things like replacement hip joints.

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          • myrmepropagandistF myrmepropagandist

            If a person were a time traveler how might that show up in their skeleton, eg in the isotopic analysis of their teeth?

            Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
            Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
            Irenes (many)
            wrote last edited by
            #55

            @futurebird so the thing about carbon dating

            (note: we are not experts on this, this is our lay understanding)

            it's based on the observation that a living thing ceases to take carbon into itself when it dies, which means its radioactives start to be a smaller proportion of its mass compared to things that are still alive

            but that only helps measure duration since death

            Irenes (many)I 1 Reply Last reply
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            • Irenes (many)I Irenes (many)

              @futurebird so the thing about carbon dating

              (note: we are not experts on this, this is our lay understanding)

              it's based on the observation that a living thing ceases to take carbon into itself when it dies, which means its radioactives start to be a smaller proportion of its mass compared to things that are still alive

              but that only helps measure duration since death

              Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
              Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
              Irenes (many)
              wrote last edited by
              #56

              @futurebird there is a nuance, though, that we suspect must be part of this methodology when it's applied for-real, but don't know enough about

              which is that the total isotope balance in the ecosystem is not necessarily constant over time. we have no intuition for how it would vary but suspect it's not uniform.

              so if you had a time traveler who you knew just died, and they hadn't been in the present day long enough to have exchanged much mass with it, they might indeed be noticeable

              Irenes (many)I 1 Reply Last reply
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              • Irenes (many)I Irenes (many)

                @futurebird there is a nuance, though, that we suspect must be part of this methodology when it's applied for-real, but don't know enough about

                which is that the total isotope balance in the ecosystem is not necessarily constant over time. we have no intuition for how it would vary but suspect it's not uniform.

                so if you had a time traveler who you knew just died, and they hadn't been in the present day long enough to have exchanged much mass with it, they might indeed be noticeable

                Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                Irenes (many)
                wrote last edited by
                #57

                @futurebird though you wouldn't be able to tell when they were from specifically, and there would be plenty of "regular" explanations such as them having had unusual exposure to radiation during their life

                Irenes (many)I ? llewellyL 3 Replies Last reply
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                • AndrewC Andrew

                  @futurebird microplastics

                  Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                  Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                  Irenes (many)
                  wrote last edited by
                  #58

                  @cinebox @futurebird honestly yeah microplastics and other environmental contaminants are probably the better way to do that identification

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                  • Matt McIrvinM Matt McIrvin

                    @futurebird Individuals who lived between 1945 and about now have greater carbon-14 levels in their bodies (from the atmospheric nuclear detonations from 1945 to 1963) than anyone who lived before.

                    But unless more nuclear bombs get detonated, new babies born will soon have no more in them than people who died before 1945.

                    Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                    Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                    Irenes (many)
                    wrote last edited by
                    #59

                    @mattmcirvin @futurebird let us aspire to allow the background radiation to continue to decline, sigh

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                    • myrmepropagandistF myrmepropagandist

                      @davidtheeviloverlord

                      Well, at least one would know you'd have exciting times in your future.

                      60 million years ago is an interesting period in ant evolution. The ancestor of Titanomyrma was probably around and there are so many gaps in the preservation of insects you could see some really amazing things.

                      Before ending up like a fossil...

                      Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                      Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                      Irenes (many)
                      wrote last edited by
                      #60

                      @futurebird @davidtheeviloverlord the best part is you can make sure your observations reach the present day, by carving them on a part of your own skeleton that you didn't get around to examining the fossilized version of

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                      • Irenes (many)I Irenes (many)

                        @futurebird though you wouldn't be able to tell when they were from specifically, and there would be plenty of "regular" explanations such as them having had unusual exposure to radiation during their life

                        Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                        Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                        Irenes (many)
                        wrote last edited by
                        #61

                        @futurebird on another note, we don't remember who wrote it but there was a short story once about time travelers who attempt to rob the library of Alexandria right before it burns down, but get caught by local law enforcement, who correctly deduce they're time travelers because......... they attempt to pass coins that are real gold, but all identical rather than showing individual variation in their manufacture

                        серафими многоꙮчитїиD 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • Irenes (many)I Irenes (many)

                          @futurebird though you wouldn't be able to tell when they were from specifically, and there would be plenty of "regular" explanations such as them having had unusual exposure to radiation during their life

                          ? Offline
                          ? Offline
                          Guest
                          wrote last edited by
                          #62

                          @ireneista @futurebird

                          At the coroner's office, after time travel has been invented:

                          Detective, writing into small notebook: "So, how long ago did the deceased die?"

                          Coroner, taking another large swig from a bottle: "Who knows? Maybe yesterday. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe right now."

                          Irenes (many)I 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • ? Guest

                            @ireneista @futurebird

                            At the coroner's office, after time travel has been invented:

                            Detective, writing into small notebook: "So, how long ago did the deceased die?"

                            Coroner, taking another large swig from a bottle: "Who knows? Maybe yesterday. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe right now."

                            Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                            Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                            Irenes (many)
                            wrote last edited by
                            #63

                            @wakame @futurebird yeah lol 😄 the hidden premise of this scenario is that time travel is noteworthy in the setting, ie. not a normal part of society yet 😄

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                            • Irenes (many)I Irenes (many)

                              @wakame @futurebird yeah lol 😄 the hidden premise of this scenario is that time travel is noteworthy in the setting, ie. not a normal part of society yet 😄

                              ? Offline
                              ? Offline
                              Guest
                              wrote last edited by
                              #64

                              @ireneista @futurebird

                              Time Traveler: "Time travel will been a rather recent invention."

                              Linguist: "You know what? I will simply go back in time and buy Microsoft shares instead of getting into a profession where I have to listen to eldritch abominations like 'will been'."

                              Time Traveler: "Microsoft? The burger chain?"

                              Irenes (many)I 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • ? Guest

                                @ireneista @futurebird

                                Time Traveler: "Time travel will been a rather recent invention."

                                Linguist: "You know what? I will simply go back in time and buy Microsoft shares instead of getting into a profession where I have to listen to eldritch abominations like 'will been'."

                                Time Traveler: "Microsoft? The burger chain?"

                                Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                                Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                                Irenes (many)
                                wrote last edited by
                                #65

                                @wakame @futurebird they really should have known that that was always going to have happened

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                                • Irenes (many)I Irenes (many)

                                  @wakame @futurebird they really should have known that that was always going to have happened

                                  ? Offline
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                                  Guest
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #66

                                  @ireneista @futurebird

                                  Retrohistorian: "So what happened is this: A lot of time travelers, and I mean... a lot show up on April 4th, 1975, to buy a share of Microsoft.
                                  And Billy 'Buns' Gates, always the entrepreneur, sells each of them a burger with fries, for $20, reselling food that costs $1.20 at the time.
                                  After that, he basically bought a company named 'McDonalds' and rebranded it.
                                  What do we learn from that? Always compare prices whenever you go."

                                  Irenes (many)I 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • ? Guest

                                    @ireneista @futurebird

                                    Retrohistorian: "So what happened is this: A lot of time travelers, and I mean... a lot show up on April 4th, 1975, to buy a share of Microsoft.
                                    And Billy 'Buns' Gates, always the entrepreneur, sells each of them a burger with fries, for $20, reselling food that costs $1.20 at the time.
                                    After that, he basically bought a company named 'McDonalds' and rebranded it.
                                    What do we learn from that? Always compare prices whenever you go."

                                    Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Irenes (many)
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #67

                                    @wakame @futurebird the most vividly believable time travel "bad end" we've ever seen is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B4vGbwR_jw

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                                    • myrmepropagandistF myrmepropagandist

                                      If a person were a time traveler how might that show up in their skeleton, eg in the isotopic analysis of their teeth?

                                      llewellyL This user is from outside of this forum
                                      llewellyL This user is from outside of this forum
                                      llewelly
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #68

                                      @futurebird carbon, oxygen, calcium, magnesium, and strontium all have stable isotope ratios which vary over time due to global geochemical cycles, and all are potentially useful in chemostratigraphy, but all are also affected by diet, and by metabolic body temperature. If all you had were isotope ratios, and no other information was available, it would be very difficult to distinguish a time traveler from someone who merely had a very unusual diet.

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                                      • Irenes (many)I Irenes (many)

                                        @futurebird on another note, we don't remember who wrote it but there was a short story once about time travelers who attempt to rob the library of Alexandria right before it burns down, but get caught by local law enforcement, who correctly deduce they're time travelers because......... they attempt to pass coins that are real gold, but all identical rather than showing individual variation in their manufacture

                                        серафими многоꙮчитїиD This user is from outside of this forum
                                        серафими многоꙮчитїиD This user is from outside of this forum
                                        серафими многоꙮчитїи
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #69

                                        @ireneista @futurebird love that the local authorities were wise to time travel even back in the day

                                        Irenes (many)I 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • серафими многоꙮчитїиD серафими многоꙮчитїи

                                          @ireneista @futurebird love that the local authorities were wise to time travel even back in the day

                                          Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Irenes (many)I This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Irenes (many)
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #70

                                          @djm62 @futurebird it was a very clever story

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