Wanted: Advice from CS teachers
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@futurebird I tell my students that debugging is 50+% of the work, *even* for me with 10+ years of experience. Then I tell them that what makes me a good programmer is not my ability to write error-free code the first time, but my ability to quickly debug code based on oodles of experience.
You could try intentionally making a few common mistakes and showing off the error messages that result if you're projecting an IDE instead of just writing on the whiteboard.
I've also built a Python library called "optimism" that can do "did you use X construct" or even "X inside Y" which helps write certain kinds of practice problems for beginners. It can generate an error message for "you're not using an if statement inside a loop but the problem requires that" for example. Reading other responses here I'm reminded that I should probably put more effort into the error messages...
@futurebird with optimism I can find simpler practice problems for low-level concepts like "write a Boolean expression with two operands that evaluates to True" or "write an assignment statement that combines the result from two function calls" and the checker can enforce those things. I think this kind of low-level practice is sometimes missing because it can't be tested by traditional value-based unit tests.
There's a chicken-and-the-egg problem with debugging: if students don't debug, they'll never learn how to really use/understand a topic. But if they don't understand it, debugging is nearly impossible and the chances of making things worse instead of better are high. Debugging seems easy once you've mastered the relevant concepts, but before that error messages often use unintelligible jargon and add with the "root cause is on another line" problem they can be hard to act on.
About a third of the way through my course, we start to emphasize adding prints to see what wrong with your code. My stock answer to every request for help becomes "Did you add a print to learn more? What did it tell you?" I'd bet if you can get students to do that first because you know that's how you'll respond it would help. A quick "okay add a print and I'll look at your code once In done talking" as a blanket response might work?
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They are middle school kids totally new to programming so reading the whole thing is a challenge and they will encounter too many words they are still learning.
And really their errors are nearly always typos. Or not putting their function call in main body of the program. Or using a variable they have not defined.
So, for them reading deep isn't that important IMO.
The responses can be very verbose and technical.
I like to compare learning to code to learning a foreign language with a native of that language that doesn’t speak my native language. Similar process with similar challenges.
I would recommend starting with collecting the most common errors, simplifying the problem area, and categorizing them. That should help with pattern recognition, give them a vocabulary to describe their issue beyond just “I’m error,” and provide them with a direction in which to search for a solution.
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I like to compare learning to code to learning a foreign language with a native of that language that doesn’t speak my native language. Similar process with similar challenges.
I would recommend starting with collecting the most common errors, simplifying the problem area, and categorizing them. That should help with pattern recognition, give them a vocabulary to describe their issue beyond just “I’m error,” and provide them with a direction in which to search for a solution.
And without knowing the group and situation that is the best advice I can provide. After all, Software development is a language puzzle.
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"Now I'm curious about whether LLMs' code compiles and executes error-free on their first attempt."
At first it did not, but they have added a routine to run it through a compiler until it at least runs without syntax errors and probably produces output that seems like what you asked for for a limited example of input.
This is a bolted on extra check, not some improvement in the base LLM.
But some people are acting like it does represent advances in the LLM.
So I’m a long-time TDD advocate, and I guess this sort of gives up the game? Like, writing trustworthy tests that anticipate every distinct, concrete possibility that matters to us—this has always been The Hard Part of “coding”
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Now I'm curious about whether LLMs' code compiles and executes error-free on their first attempt.
(Aside from the question of whether it meets requirements, as originally intended; always the hard part).
@EricLawton @futurebird @david_chisnall
There are systems where the LLm will also generate a suite of tests, then repeatedly run the code and the tests, read the error messages and the failed tests, and repeatedly makes modifications. This is slow(can be hours), but it can (for some problems) converge on working code where just asking the chat bot does not.
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3. When I ask if anyone has any questions and a student raises their hand I say "individual?" "Okay I'll help you in a minute"
When they blurt out, I say "let me finish and I'll walk around and help people in a minute". So I never help blurt outs immediately so there's no instant gratification encouraging them to blurt out
@futurebird
4. As we're coding together, I often type the code wrong on purpose, either because a student suggested the wrong thing, or I take advantage of their ambiguity to make syntactical errors.
And I am careful to not reveal that it's wrong with my tone. So the whole class including me has errors that we work through together. This gets them used to solving errors, shows them that others including me make errors, and they don't expect that the code I show on the screen is always perfect. -
I think they become anxious when their code isn't working the same as what I have up on the projector and they want to get it fixed RIGHT AWAY so they won't fall behind.
Then when one of them starts calling out they all do it.
I may take some time to explain this.
This never happens when I'm teaching math. Something about coding makes them forget some of their manners, and become less self-sufficient. "It's broke! I'm helpless!"
What is that about?
@futurebird To be fair there are a lot of professional software engineers I know who have essentially this same problem. The second anything is wrong they go on slack and start asking for help immediately and go straight to helplessness.
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@futurebird I gave my students code with errors in it and had them fix it. But they do have to be at a certain level to be able to do that.
I stole this idea from the Java certification exams, which had code examples that would get most people fired.
@venite @futurebird debugging is standard even in primary in many curricula - you can start with basic algorithms, move onto block code, then move onto very basic python and even database/search queries. And still keep the algorithms running alongside!
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@futurebird maybe reiterate at the start of the demo, and even put up a short statement on the wall so you can point at it rather than answer! Should drum it in quickly
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The thing I keep saying is: an error message is not a person telling you what specifically went wrong this time. It's a string somebody writing the program months or years ago thought would describe what they *guessed* back then might cause the code to reach that state unexpectedly.
1. Code can always be wrong, sometimes in ways the programmer hadn't thought of (in fact often since they probably handled the ways they'd thought of) and,
2. Error handling code is code.@petealexharris @futurebird @wakame maybe counterintuitive, but I've found that human communication skills are often helpful in learning and understanding programming. Example: "error on line 32" means the interpreter got confused on line 32. Maybe because of line 32 or maybe because there was a miscommunication earlier.
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@futurebird
4. As we're coding together, I often type the code wrong on purpose, either because a student suggested the wrong thing, or I take advantage of their ambiguity to make syntactical errors.
And I am careful to not reveal that it's wrong with my tone. So the whole class including me has errors that we work through together. This gets them used to solving errors, shows them that others including me make errors, and they don't expect that the code I show on the screen is always perfect.@cubeofcheese @futurebird all of the above, but particularly #4. Model the behaviour you want. Cold call what the error that you just made is. Let it become a thing to audit your code.
Another thing that works is pair programming. Building that culture and trust can take a little while, but both parties learn a lot.
@MrBerard mihjt have ideas?
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Sometimes I have them write the code on paper with the computers closed. And this is fine, but I'd rather have them using the IDE or textedit and there is a limit to how much fun you can have with code on paper.
And it does tend to be the weaker students who are almost happy to find something to stop the onslaught of information "see it doesn't work! we can't go on!" and that obviously makes me very grouchy.
I need them to see this is like saying "Teacher my pencil broke! Stop the lesson!"
This might be a bit too far (my teaching has been of older kids), but what if instead teaching them "coding" of "programming", you teach them "debugging"?
I mean start referring to that class exclusively as "debugging". "Okay class, it's time for debugging. Open your....". That way if they write something that doesn't work it's not a mistake - they've produced something that's important for the next step, which is understanding error messages, locating the place in the code ....
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@petealexharris @futurebird @wakame maybe counterintuitive, but I've found that human communication skills are often helpful in learning and understanding programming. Example: "error on line 32" means the interpreter got confused on line 32. Maybe because of line 32 or maybe because there was a miscommunication earlier.
@elplatt @futurebird @wakame
Yeah it only means an inconsistency was detected while trying to interpret/compile line 32, not that the mistake as a human would identify it is on line 32. -
I like the idea of a posted message.
You’re not stuck until you’ve tried:
A.
B.
C.(Variation on the old “You’re not stuck until you’ve run out of gas.”)
@donray @futurebird there are lots of them about https://www.tes.com/teaching-resource/debugging-checklist-poster-for-the-computer-tech-classroom-13223869
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Wanted: Advice from CS teachers
When teaching a group of students new to coding I've noticed that my students who are normally very good about not calling out during class will shout "it's not working!" the moment their code hits an error and fails to run. They want me to fix it right away. This makes for too many interruptions since I'm easy to nerd snipe in this way.
I think I need to let them know that fixing errors that keep the code from running is literally what I'm trying to teach.
@futurebird I've seen this too. Even in one-on-one instruction. Errors cause the students to panic and jump around quickly without stopping to think. Teaching students to stop and take a breath can be helpful. Sometimes the problem is the students are trying to learn by rote and don't have a mental model of what the code is doing, which takes a lot of time to address.
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So I’m a long-time TDD advocate, and I guess this sort of gives up the game? Like, writing trustworthy tests that anticipate every distinct, concrete possibility that matters to us—this has always been The Hard Part of “coding”
That's hard, and so is figuring out the precursor of both code and test cases: the requirements.
I remember going to the US in the early days of Obamacare, for one State's new system to support it.
We had various experts representing different interests and they disagreed over so many points that I told them I would get them a neutral negotiations facilitator to help them figure things out, because I couldn't help until they were much closer to agreement.
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This might be a bit too far (my teaching has been of older kids), but what if instead teaching them "coding" of "programming", you teach them "debugging"?
I mean start referring to that class exclusively as "debugging". "Okay class, it's time for debugging. Open your....". That way if they write something that doesn't work it's not a mistake - they've produced something that's important for the next step, which is understanding error messages, locating the place in the code ....
.... where the error is likely to be hiding, figuring out how to remove things to get to a basic structure that does work.
Honestly, "debugging" is the first thing you gotta learn. Heck "Basic Swimming" is still called swimming, but the key skill you learn is "breathing - while your face is in water half the time".
This might be expecting too much patience from your age cohort, but what if "it doesn't work" was met with "Excellent. We'll use that in the next step."
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Wanted: Advice from CS teachers
When teaching a group of students new to coding I've noticed that my students who are normally very good about not calling out during class will shout "it's not working!" the moment their code hits an error and fails to run. They want me to fix it right away. This makes for too many interruptions since I'm easy to nerd snipe in this way.
I think I need to let them know that fixing errors that keep the code from running is literally what I'm trying to teach.
@futurebird a powerful conceptual tool that I have after working in Boot Camp and in professional training is this: your code has billions of configurations, all of them except one are incorrect.
Therefore you’re going to spend the majority of your time with not working code. When it does work, that is the exception.
Therefore, your goal will be to learn how to gather information and diagnose the nature of the wrongness so that you can get it to the one working state this blunts the Instagram effect.
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@donray @futurebird there are lots of them about https://www.tes.com/teaching-resource/debugging-checklist-poster-for-the-computer-tech-classroom-13223869
@donray @futurebird if you wanted to turn it into a Teachable Moment (TM) you could create the list together then put it up on the wall after.
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@futurebird
I totally cried when I was 14 and I tought in my naivety that I knew almost everything and then a simple program failed.
@wakame @futurebird can confirm, I work on the standard library for a major programming language and my working assumption is “you can tell I’m writing a bug because my hands are moving”.
Which is why we have tens of thousands of tests and multiple code reviewers and elaborate compiler checking and teams of people dedicated to making sure everyone else’s code that uses my code still works and everyone “dogfoods” the changes and and and… stuff still slips through every once in a while.
