Wanted: Advice from CS teachers
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Example of the problem:
Me: "OK everyone. Next we'll make this into a function so we can simply call it each time-"
Student 1: "It won't work." (student who wouldn't interrupt like this normally)
Student 2: "Mine's broken too!"
Student 3: "It says error. I have the EXACT same thing as you but it's not working."
This makes me feel overloaded and grouchy. Too many questions at once. What I want them to do is wait until the explanation is done and ask when I'm walking around.
Sometimes when you are teaching you need to stop the lecture, change the plan because there is an error in the worksheet, or the problem is too hard.
What's really annoying me is that some students think that when their code doesn't run this is "a problem with the lesson" I should stop everything until we fix it.
But, my lesson is fine. The student just made a typo.
They are so focused on the code running they aren't listening to the lesson which would teach them WHY it's not running.
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I think they become anxious when their code isn't working the same as what I have up on the projector and they want to get it fixed RIGHT AWAY so they won't fall behind.
Then when one of them starts calling out they all do it.
I may take some time to explain this.
This never happens when I'm teaching math. Something about coding makes them forget some of their manners, and become less self-sufficient. "It's broke! I'm helpless!"
What is that about?
@futurebird "This never happens when I'm teaching math. Something about coding makes them forget some of their manners"
My take -- it's GOAL-ORIENTED. Maths is modelling, descriptive. Δ🧠-states
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This is helpful for me. I had a hard time understanding why one student was upset, almost to the point of tears (they are very sensitive) that the error message said "error on line 32" but, really the problem was the way they originally named the variable.
"Why couldn't it just say the error was on line 4?
I tried everything I could to fix line 32. 🥺 "My sweet child... it's just not that smart, not like you.
@futurebird @wakame speaking of computers not being that smart, I always like the lesson of programming with real world examples. Like "program me to make a peanut butter sandwich". inevitably you get something like "step one, put peanut butter on bread" at which point you put the jar of peanut butter on a slice of bread.
a lot of human interaction assumes a computer is"smart" because it can do things quickly that you cannot do quickly and humans have worked very hard to make it appear that computers are thinking and doing stuff like a person. Machine learning is, unfortunately exacerbating this effect.
to the original question of how to reduce interuption? maybe that why my college professor got into too programming made me handwrite code with pencil and paper
(not a flashback I needed) -
Sometimes when you are teaching you need to stop the lecture, change the plan because there is an error in the worksheet, or the problem is too hard.
What's really annoying me is that some students think that when their code doesn't run this is "a problem with the lesson" I should stop everything until we fix it.
But, my lesson is fine. The student just made a typo.
They are so focused on the code running they aren't listening to the lesson which would teach them WHY it's not running.
@futurebird I like to say that when students are in front of a computer, their ears disappear.
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I think they become anxious when their code isn't working the same as what I have up on the projector and they want to get it fixed RIGHT AWAY so they won't fall behind.
Then when one of them starts calling out they all do it.
I may take some time to explain this.
This never happens when I'm teaching math. Something about coding makes them forget some of their manners, and become less self-sufficient. "It's broke! I'm helpless!"
What is that about?
> I think they become anxious when their code isn't working the same as what I have up on the projector and they want to get it fixed RIGHT AWAY so they won't fall behind.
Isn't this the whole problem? Maybe they intuit from you that the class is "keep up with the projector", when in reality the valuable skill is "if you're lost or confused, come up with hypothesis and critically explore them by yourself until you figure out what's going on".
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Sometimes when you are teaching you need to stop the lecture, change the plan because there is an error in the worksheet, or the problem is too hard.
What's really annoying me is that some students think that when their code doesn't run this is "a problem with the lesson" I should stop everything until we fix it.
But, my lesson is fine. The student just made a typo.
They are so focused on the code running they aren't listening to the lesson which would teach them WHY it's not running.
Sometimes I have them write the code on paper with the computers closed. And this is fine, but I'd rather have them using the IDE or textedit and there is a limit to how much fun you can have with code on paper.
And it does tend to be the weaker students who are almost happy to find something to stop the onslaught of information "see it doesn't work! we can't go on!" and that obviously makes me very grouchy.
I need them to see this is like saying "Teacher my pencil broke! Stop the lesson!"
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@futurebird "This never happens when I'm teaching math. Something about coding makes them forget some of their manners"
My take -- it's GOAL-ORIENTED. Maths is modelling, descriptive. Δ🧠-states
@futurebird ....your timeline is exhausting, a navigational nightmare! Extension of a class-full, I guess....
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@futurebird So Your Code Won't Run: great! Errors like this that stop it running completely are much easier to track down than errors that just give you the wrong answer. Or give you the wrong answer _sometimes_.
@RogerBW @futurebird (some) C coders have a saying:
If the compiler emits an error, then your code can't run;
If the compiler emits a warning, then your code won't run, at least not the way you expect it to;
If the compiler emits no errors and no warnings, then it's high time you updated your compiler.
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@itgrrl also self taught, from what I can see this is rarely in courses - can ask some recent grads this week. @futurebird
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Example of the problem:
Me: "OK everyone. Next we'll make this into a function so we can simply call it each time-"
Student 1: "It won't work." (student who wouldn't interrupt like this normally)
Student 2: "Mine's broken too!"
Student 3: "It says error. I have the EXACT same thing as you but it's not working."
This makes me feel overloaded and grouchy. Too many questions at once. What I want them to do is wait until the explanation is done and ask when I'm walking around.
@futurebird Maybe follow a writing workshop approach. 10 minute mini lesson, students work on applying coding concept, you conference with them individually after checking on what they are doing, group share at the end where they show their code and what they have done while others make a positive remark or suggestion. End each week or whatever time range with a culminating project that shows their knowledge of three core ideas taught. A suggestion from a writing teacher…may not work.
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> I think they become anxious when their code isn't working the same as what I have up on the projector and they want to get it fixed RIGHT AWAY so they won't fall behind.
Isn't this the whole problem? Maybe they intuit from you that the class is "keep up with the projector", when in reality the valuable skill is "if you're lost or confused, come up with hypothesis and critically explore them by yourself until you figure out what's going on".
@futurebird It's hard to sit back and think when you're under the pressure of "do it fast or you'll fall behind". Maybe decouple the two: projector classes shouldn't be done in front of the computer. Projector classes are for you to show something, and interacting with the computer are for the students to explore, and you can't do both at the same time.
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Wanted: Advice from CS teachers
When teaching a group of students new to coding I've noticed that my students who are normally very good about not calling out during class will shout "it's not working!" the moment their code hits an error and fails to run. They want me to fix it right away. This makes for too many interruptions since I'm easy to nerd snipe in this way.
I think I need to let them know that fixing errors that keep the code from running is literally what I'm trying to teach.
@futurebird I take it there are no assistants in class?
I have no idea if we're talking young adults, high school, or primary. But in high school in the 1980s for grade 12 CS we had to assist in the grade 9 CS class. When a student would raise their hands, one of us in grade 12 would rush over, leaving the teacher uninterrupted.
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@futurebird I take it there are no assistants in class?
I have no idea if we're talking young adults, high school, or primary. But in high school in the 1980s for grade 12 CS we had to assist in the grade 9 CS class. When a student would raise their hands, one of us in grade 12 would rush over, leaving the teacher uninterrupted.
These are middle school kids. I don't think they need someone to rush over and help them. I want them to think about "my code won't run" in a different way.
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@futurebird I take it there are no assistants in class?
I have no idea if we're talking young adults, high school, or primary. But in high school in the 1980s for grade 12 CS we had to assist in the grade 9 CS class. When a student would raise their hands, one of us in grade 12 would rush over, leaving the teacher uninterrupted.
Like if someone offered me an assistant I'd say "that's OK." the class size is reasonable 12-18 students. I just need to help them understand errors better.
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This is helpful for me. I had a hard time understanding why one student was upset, almost to the point of tears (they are very sensitive) that the error message said "error on line 32" but, really the problem was the way they originally named the variable.
"Why couldn't it just say the error was on line 4?
I tried everything I could to fix line 32. 🥺 "My sweet child... it's just not that smart, not like you.
The thing I keep saying is: an error message is not a person telling you what specifically went wrong this time. It's a string somebody writing the program months or years ago thought would describe what they *guessed* back then might cause the code to reach that state unexpectedly.
1. Code can always be wrong, sometimes in ways the programmer hadn't thought of (in fact often since they probably handled the ways they'd thought of) and,
2. Error handling code is code. -
I think they become anxious when their code isn't working the same as what I have up on the projector and they want to get it fixed RIGHT AWAY so they won't fall behind.
Then when one of them starts calling out they all do it.
I may take some time to explain this.
This never happens when I'm teaching math. Something about coding makes them forget some of their manners, and become less self-sufficient. "It's broke! I'm helpless!"
What is that about?
@futurebird When the computer doesn't do the thing when it's supposed to it can be like "why isn't the machine doing what I say?", they're not the source of the issue but the computer can be. When you're the computer, you only have yourself to fix the problem.
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Wanted: Advice from CS teachers
When teaching a group of students new to coding I've noticed that my students who are normally very good about not calling out during class will shout "it's not working!" the moment their code hits an error and fails to run. They want me to fix it right away. This makes for too many interruptions since I'm easy to nerd snipe in this way.
I think I need to let them know that fixing errors that keep the code from running is literally what I'm trying to teach.
@futurebird Maybe a change of emphasis focussing on "getting it working" as the task, while entering the code becomes a more mechanical step that just has to be done?
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Example of the problem:
Me: "OK everyone. Next we'll make this into a function so we can simply call it each time-"
Student 1: "It won't work." (student who wouldn't interrupt like this normally)
Student 2: "Mine's broken too!"
Student 3: "It says error. I have the EXACT same thing as you but it's not working."
This makes me feel overloaded and grouchy. Too many questions at once. What I want them to do is wait until the explanation is done and ask when I'm walking around.
@futurebird I’m pivoting off this just to share a funny story. An old CS prof shared this with me when I was staff in a CS department at a university.
One of his undergrads had come to him with a big printed listing of their code (back when that was how you did that! It was probably FORTRAN printed on fan-fold paper). They obviously wanted him to find the problem in their code. It became clear quickly that they hadn’t done anything to debug it themselves.
He started point at various places in the listing. “Right here, add PRINT ‘I am a dumbass’. And here: PRINT ‘I am a dumbass’” and so on. “Then run it and see how many dumbasses you get.”
Now, did he really do that? Is that just how he tells the story? Who knows. But it’s funny. And anyone who has ever written code will agree that this works sometimes.
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The thing I keep saying is: an error message is not a person telling you what specifically went wrong this time. It's a string somebody writing the program months or years ago thought would describe what they *guessed* back then might cause the code to reach that state unexpectedly.
1. Code can always be wrong, sometimes in ways the programmer hadn't thought of (in fact often since they probably handled the ways they'd thought of) and,
2. Error handling code is code."Error handling code is code."
It had not occurred to me that a student might not see it that way "some guy wrote code to try to tell you what went wrong" but I can see how this might not be how a student might see the errors.
It's like when I realized as a kid that all books are just ... written by people. A revelation. I think I thought, on some level, books were a natural product of the universe. When I realized they could have typos, bad ideas it was so exciting.
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@futurebird I’m pivoting off this just to share a funny story. An old CS prof shared this with me when I was staff in a CS department at a university.
One of his undergrads had come to him with a big printed listing of their code (back when that was how you did that! It was probably FORTRAN printed on fan-fold paper). They obviously wanted him to find the problem in their code. It became clear quickly that they hadn’t done anything to debug it themselves.
He started point at various places in the listing. “Right here, add PRINT ‘I am a dumbass’. And here: PRINT ‘I am a dumbass’” and so on. “Then run it and see how many dumbasses you get.”
Now, did he really do that? Is that just how he tells the story? Who knows. But it’s funny. And anyone who has ever written code will agree that this works sometimes.
My students are too hard working and sensitive to deserve such things.
But.
Well, I have met other people in my life.
