Without saying anything negative about D&D 5e, let me tell you about two of my personal favorites: # The Dark Eye Under the name "Das Schwarze Auge", this is one of the most popular systems in Germany and has existed since the mid 80s and the latest edition has been available in English for about a decade now. There are dozens of source books and hundreds of official campaigns and standalone adventures, all set in the same world and a single ongoing canon (apart from a few early works that have been retconned). There are decades of detailed in-world history that you can use as a background for your own campaign if you want or selectively ignore if you want to focus on your own interpretation of what the world should look like. Mechanics-wise it's a lot less board-game-like than some 70s/80s/90s systems while not going the full "storytelling first" route that many more moderns systems seem to prefer. On top of the eight basic attributes, characters can select from a pool of skills and feats that cover everything from combat to magic to social interaction to crafts and hobbies. The system focuses a lot less on combat than other high fantasy systems and it's absolutely viable to have a group of purely social-focused characters that never get into a single fight but still get to use a lot of the system's mechanics. Overall it's relatively complex if you want to use absolutely every rule but at the same time very versatile and can be customized to your playstyle. # Opus Anima / Opus Anima Investigation Sadly out of print and never officially translated to English so I'll focus on the one thing that works without the official setting: it's one of the simplest systems I've ever seen. It uses a pool of D2s (odd/even on D6, coins, red/black cards, whatever you have on hand) where the number of dice is determined by a basic attribute and a skill that can be combined however the situation requires. Dexterity + mechanics to build something, perception + mechanics to recognize a mechanism, knowledge + mechanics to understand the underlying principles or remember who invented something. To avoid experienced characters failing an easy check out of pure bad luck, everything over 10 dice is not rolled but gives half a success (rounded up) automatically. That's it. That's the whole system.

They didn't ask the wrong question, though. You're seeing a solution *they do not want* and *do not care about* then *blaming them* for not listening to the unsolicited advice. The problem isn't on *their* end.

Yes, that's called roleplaying. And there's nothing, not a single line in any book that supports any of this! Everything about this scenario works pretty much exactly the same if the Barbarian goes to the library and references his notes, the wizard visits the local church and convinces the town to to join their crusade and the cleric goes to the tavern, sves the kitten, drinks with the guards, etc. Every character does everything exactly the same. Let me give you a counter example in a system that actually does this well. In The Dark Eye, the wizard goes to the local library because they have several talents and skills that help them find and organize information in books, the cleric talks to the local clergy who respect him du to his local standing and clergical vow. The barbarian actually put some points into "carousing" which makes them a solid drinker and their "local contact" skill may give them a pointer towards the old lady with the cat problem.

Hey, sorry that didn't hit right. Since the post was in a meme community, I didn't take the post as a serious complaint. Memes bring out jokes, that's *part* of the point of them. I intended it as a form of commiseration with a bit of tongue in cheek playfulness. If I'd known you were making a real complaint rather than playing with a trope for laughs, I would have made a totally different comment. So, here's what I would have said if I had known you were experiencing distress over the issue. I get it. Back when 3.x was a thing, the old ad&d diehards made the same kind of statements. *Now*, 5e devotees make the same kind of statements about 3.x, and even ad&d, as well as the ongoing new version coming out. It's a fairly universal thing. When it's said in a lighthearted, unserious way, it can even help bridge players and DMs that are more entrenched with one version or another because it acknowledges that there's not always compatibility between versions, making play groups harder to arrange since very few people really enjoy learning a new system to play what is (at its core) the same game. Me and my kid make the same joke to each other, both of us aware that we have played both systems and have a different preference. Me and the DM of my kid's group talk shit about our preferred versions too. And we piss and moan about the difficulties of running games with players that are most familiar with one edition and having trouble adapting years of play experience in one to a different one. Like, I've got over a grand in 3.x books. At least that, maybe more, I lost track. So I'm not going to pony up a dime to get the equivalent library in 5e, or any future editions. But I've had players from 5e, and ad&d in my games (though I haven't DMed in years at this point). There's always a learning curve to a different edition. It places an artificial barrier of entry to the underlying game. So most people will commit to one version and stick with it. When they *do* try others, what they see is changes that are a pain in the ass for fairly minor benefits, along with one or two great ideas. Us 3.x folks look at bounded accuracy, or advantage/disadvantage and drool a little, but there's no way we'd switch just for that when the rest of the edition is just different, not *better*. 5e folks look at the 3.x prestige classes and how easy they are to home brew and really make a unique character but look at all the imbalances in the base classes and nope the fuck out And don't even ask about how newer players stare blankly at you while you try to explain thac0. Or how a black hole of despair forms and sucks your brain in trying to explain a truly awkward and counterintuitive system like thac0 in the first place. There's no such thing as a perfect system. They're all approximations of fantasy settings (I'm talking about standard d&d here, but there's no perfect system in other types of games either), and approximations simply *can't* fit every situation every time. So, when some asshole is being *serious* about "your edition sucks, play a better one", fuck them. It's bullshit, and if they don't know it, they're going to be a shitty player or DM anyway. They're not worth the time and effort. But the rest of us kinda have the shorthand of the trope as a way to say "the problem exists, but we can't fix it". You either put the effort in to learn the details of each edition, or you stick to the one you like best and deal with having more trouble finding stable groups. No bullshit Stamets, my entire goal was to join in on what I thought was your joke along that same line. I thought you were poking fun at the trope of it, and that's what I was doing. The little winky face didn't do enough to convey that, or maybe your stress over the subject meant *nothing* would have conveyed the intent of shared recognition of how silly it all is to edition snob. But it definitely failed to convey the intent, no matter why it failed. Sorry about that. They can't all be winners ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ but I swear it was meant to be something we'd both have a chuckle over.

No, they definitely asked the wrong question. If they ask "how can I do [thing]", it assumes it's possible to do [thing]. But if they can't do [thing], the question is invalid, and there is no correct answer. Honestly, the way you put it, it's like they don't actually want to fix the problem. They just want their solution to be right. Anyone who doesn't tell them what they want to hear is the REAL problem, even if that they want to hear is a lie. Do you want me to lie?

I see what you're saying, but... To me that's okay? I don't need to follow the book for all that shiet? You don't need to overspecialize on your character sheet. In DnD/Pathfinder you grab the Lore/Knowledge/etc skill for a wide range of actions. The nobility will respect your cleric because it's a cleric, has a symbol of the order, ecclesiastic rank from the roleplaying, but if she can't persuade for shiet, she'll loose that initial respect quickly. Have you ever played Shadowrun? I think I left that system the moment my DM decided to reference table for jumping out of a riding car by / brand / speed / manoeuvre / skill level to determine my damage. The Dark Eye is that German thingy, right? I never liked it as a system, it felt constraining. On the other hand, my favourite system is Fudge, so we might just like different things.

Mutants and Masterminds is kind of interesting. I like how it's designed so character creation is entirely point buy. There's no classes. No spells. You pay for skills and abilities directly. There's basic powers, and modifiers you can use to make them more interesting. It's also geared towards balance as opposed to simulation, which means you can make whatever type of character you want instead of having to stick with what's optimal. Unfortunately, it's not well-done. For example, they frequently forget the game uses a log scale and cut numbers in half. Someone with a Dodge rank of -2 who is Vulnerable has their active defenses halved, which brings their Dodge rank up to -1. Equipment is 3 to 4 times cheaper than Devices, with the only differences being flavor (Equipment is something a normal person can get) and a different method of calculating Toughness that very often makes Equipment stronger. I ended up making a list of [house rules](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ovb62kXW1iRqf6AKQ5YuHF9bHoyLqV51Kb9KSmI4Geg/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.4sk11ou919l4) trying to fix all of them (and admittedly including a few alternate rules that aren't clearly better or worse) that's so long that it would probably be easier to make a new RPG. I don't suppose I can get any advice on something I would like? My requirements are: 1. A point buy system that lets you make any character you want. 2. Costs are based on making characters balanced, and not how literally expensive a piece of equipment would be and that sort of thing. 3. Must be balanced as far as reasonably possible without massive flaws like M&M. 4. I'd really like having a wide variety of characters you can make and things you can do. Make it so you can just play a Swarm, or a character of any size class, or anything else you can think of.

Agreed, Shadowrun overdoes it with its thousands of rules and The Dark Eye also has its problems. Especially when it comes to combat. But DnD is on the other side of that spectrum. It's just severely lacking any kind of character depth. That's why I'm working on my own system trying to balance the complex, but meaningful character creatuon choices of system like Shadowrun and The Dark Eye with the combat of DnD.

But they definitely *can* do the thing, because it's a game of make-believe. Again, this is not hammering in a screw, it's mental systems for deciding how imaginary doings transpire.

And I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. At first I missed the emoticon before catching it after. I should have been more clear my frustration was at the concept you were also poking fun at, not at you yourself. I was just waking up and the frustration I have for that line of thinking took full force there, the jokey lines in my head just didn't materialize. I'm just supremely tired of seeing the people who actually do it, full throated. Doesn't even matter if it's dnd, just stuff in general. Like it seems to be harder and harder to find a conversation about the alternative of something that isn't just "This sucks so mine is better."

Without saying anything negative about D&D 5e, let me tell you about two of my personal favorites: # The Dark Eye Under the name "Das Schwarze Auge", this is one of the most popular systems in Germany and has existed since the mid 80s and the latest edition has been available in English for about a decade now. There are dozens of source books and hundreds of official campaigns and standalone adventures, all set in the same world and a single ongoing canon (apart from a few early works that have been retconned). There are decades of detailed in-world history that you can use as a background for your own campaign if you want or selectively ignore if you want to focus on your own interpretation of what the world should look like. Mechanics-wise it's a lot less board-game-like than some 70s/80s/90s systems while not going the full "storytelling first" route that many more moderns systems seem to prefer. On top of the eight basic attributes, characters can select from a pool of skills and feats that cover everything from combat to magic to social interaction to crafts and hobbies. The system focuses a lot less on combat than other high fantasy systems and it's absolutely viable to have a group of purely social-focused characters that never get into a single fight but still get to use a lot of the system's mechanics. Overall it's relatively complex if you want to use absolutely every rule but at the same time very versatile and can be customized to your playstyle. # Opus Anima / Opus Anima Investigation Sadly out of print and never officially translated to English so I'll focus on the one thing that works without the official setting: it's one of the simplest systems I've ever seen. It uses a pool of D2s (odd/even on D6, coins, red/black cards, whatever you have on hand) where the number of dice is determined by a basic attribute and a skill that can be combined however the situation requires. Dexterity + mechanics to build something, perception + mechanics to recognize a mechanism, knowledge + mechanics to understand the underlying principles or remember who invented something. To avoid experienced characters failing an easy check out of pure bad luck, everything over 10 dice is not rolled but gives half a success (rounded up) automatically. That's it. That's the whole system.

d&d 5e is a fine system, it's just more than i want to gm and more than my friends want to learn. so simpler systems like shadowdark or black hack are really great for us, but if your group knows d&d 5e and has fun playing it, than why the hell not just play 5e?

I used to play Cyberpunk with GURPS rules. It was great.

I play 5e, but: I feel that the reason people are hating on 5e is not because the system is bad, it is almost exclusively because Wizards and Hasbro tried to fuck everyone over. There might be certain systems that some people subjectively prefer because they do certain things in a way they prefer, but that literally doesn't matter, that is subjective. DnD5e is practically a house name at this point. It is popular and well regarded, especially by new players. Anyone who wants to make the claim that the system is bad will have bang their subjective arguments against the steel wall that is its popularity. So that is to say... the reason to not play 5e is because it's important to punish WotC and Hasbro, and it's important to support rising publishers.

***Runequest*** No character classes: everyone can fight, everyone gets magic, everyone worships a god (with a few exceptions), and your character gets better at stuff they do or stuff they get training in. The closest there is to a character class is the choice of god your character worships, but there is plenty of leeway to play very different worshippers of the same god. No levels: your character gets better at stuff they do or stuff they get training in. As they progress in their god's cult they also get access to more Rune spells. Intuitive percentile 'roll under' system: an absolute newbie who's never played any RPG before can look at their character sheet and understand how good their character is at their skills: "I only have 15% in Sneak, but a 90% Sword skill - reckon I'm going in, 'Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!'" Hit locations: fights are very deadly and wounds matter, "Oh dear, my left leg's come off!" Passions and Runes: these help guide characterisation,and can also boost relevant skill rolls in a role-playing driven way, e.g invoking your *Love Family* passion to try and augment your shield skill while defending your mother from a marauding broo. Meaningful religions: your character's choice of deity and cult provides direction, flavour, and appropriate magic. Especially cool when characters get beefy enough to start engaging in heroquesting - part ceremonial ritual, part literal recreation of some story from the god time. No alignment: your character's behaviour *can* be modified by their passions, eg "Love family" or "Hate trolls", and possibly by the requirements of whatever god you worship, but otherwise is yours to play as you see fit in the moment without wondering if you're being sufficiently *chaotic neutral*. Characters are embedded in their family, their culture, and the cult of the god they worship: the game encourages connections to home, kith, kin, and cult making them more meaningful in game and, in the process, giving additional background elements to take the edge of murder hoboism (though if that's what the group really wants then that's a path they *can* go down (see MGF, next)). YGMV & MGF: Greg Stafford, who created Glorantha, the world in which Runequest is set, was fond of two sayings. The first is "Your Glorantha May Vary". If is a fundamental expectation, upheld by Chaosium, that while they publish the 'canonical' version of Glorantha any and every GM has the right to mess with it for the games they run. Find the existence of feathered humanoids with the heads, bills, and webbed feet of ducks to be too ridiculous for your game table? Then excise them from the game with Greg's blessing. The second is the only rule that trumps YGMV, and that is that the GM should *always* strive for "Maximum Game Fun". While we're on the subject of Glorantha, the world of Glorantha! It's large and complex and very well developed in some areas (notably Dragon Pass and Prax) but with plenty of space for a GM to insert their own creations. It is, without doubt, one of the contenders for best RPG setting of all time. To continue on the subject of Glorantha, there is insanely deep lore if you want to go full nerdgasm on it. But you can play and enjoy the game with a sliver-thin veneer of knowledge: "I'm playing a Humakti who worships the uncompromising god of honour and Death." The [RQ starter set](https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-starter-set/) contains everything you need to get a real taste for the game (ie minimal lore) and is great value for money since it's what Chaosium hope will draw people in.  Ducks: ducks are cool and not to be under-estimated.

Okay but as long as we are complaining about shit we see on RPG forums "I wish I could do `$thing` in DnD" "`$otherSystem` has a very cool subsystem for `$thing`" "Omg how dare you" Had this conversation enough times to make it a pet peeve of mine

The Secret Service has traced your IP address and is converging on your location as we speak.