A teacher needs to know their students to be effective.
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@futurebird All kids need attention. I felt so neglected in sixth grade. I tested out of English and was in the math group where we taught ourselves. I was hungry for someone to treat me like a kid, not someone who had to be self-sufficient because they couldn’t afford to give me attention.
Exactly. When you abandon the kids who are "doing fine on their own" they stop being kids who are "doing fine" because no one really is fine just ... being ignored.
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As a teacher I have discovered that this is non-negotiable. Kids have an instinct for when they are being abandoned. Being a person who matters means that other people care about you and are willing to spend time on you.
I've seen kids who were acting out, totally lost find the thread again because they discovered that someone cared what happened to them. Someone cares what they do.
That alone will make you want to do better.
@futurebird My sister is a head teacher, who's had to deal with 'failng' schools in the past, in rough areas. She said it's quickly obvious which kids have serious issues because of abuse and neglect, who need a lot of extra, specialised help, and which ones are mostly acting out because they're starved of attention from parents and teachers. Once they get that attention from teachers who care, rather than ones just trying to make them behave, they start to calm down and blossom.
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As a teacher I have discovered that this is non-negotiable. Kids have an instinct for when they are being abandoned. Being a person who matters means that other people care about you and are willing to spend time on you.
I've seen kids who were acting out, totally lost find the thread again because they discovered that someone cared what happened to them. Someone cares what they do.
That alone will make you want to do better.
I worked in education technology for around 5 years and was very quickly disliiusioned that most of the field (i.e. technological approaches to "improve" education) is really just attempts to reduce labor costs/diminish the power of unions. Outcomes was always going to be secondary to the financials involved, because the field is completely captured by the notion that investment/hiring more teachers/improving working conditions for teachers _can't happen_. Their priors are that education has to be done "more cheaply", forgetting that this is a political assertion of ghouls.
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F myrmepropagandist shared this topic
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I worked in education technology for around 5 years and was very quickly disliiusioned that most of the field (i.e. technological approaches to "improve" education) is really just attempts to reduce labor costs/diminish the power of unions. Outcomes was always going to be secondary to the financials involved, because the field is completely captured by the notion that investment/hiring more teachers/improving working conditions for teachers _can't happen_. Their priors are that education has to be done "more cheaply", forgetting that this is a political assertion of ghouls.
The same race to the bottom over and over in different outfits.
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@futurebird My sister is a head teacher, who's had to deal with 'failng' schools in the past, in rough areas. She said it's quickly obvious which kids have serious issues because of abuse and neglect, who need a lot of extra, specialised help, and which ones are mostly acting out because they're starved of attention from parents and teachers. Once they get that attention from teachers who care, rather than ones just trying to make them behave, they start to calm down and blossom.
Attention isn't a magic bullet for all things, but it's the difference between a "bad school" with a ton of suspensions and bad test scores and chaotic classrooms and a "good school."
At the "bad school" the teachers have too many students and have to do triage. And there are more students who aren't getting adult support outside of school. They don't have violin lessons or anything. And they can feel the neglect. So they find ways to get attention. As they should really.
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A teacher needs to know their students to be effective. This puts an upper limit on the number of students one teacher can teach at once. Something like 150 students. I need to know their names, and when I see that name a little about who that is.
Further, a student should have at least 4 or 5 teachers who know them. This is a selection of hopefully trustworthy and supportive adults they can turn to.
Most plans to make school less expensive mess with these numbers.
@futurebird
tbh that 150 number still sounds pretty damn high (at least from my postsecondary perspective)—I had around 100 last semester in four classes, the largest with 32 students, and I was able to get to know *many* of them as individuals, but already that that scale it’s very hard to get to know the quiet ones who don’t stand out in some way -
@futurebird
tbh that 150 number still sounds pretty damn high (at least from my postsecondary perspective)—I had around 100 last semester in four classes, the largest with 32 students, and I was able to get to know *many* of them as individuals, but already that that scale it’s very hard to get to know the quiet ones who don’t stand out in some wayThere was a time when they tried to give me 180 students in one term and I quit that job. I can't remember that many names.
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A teacher needs to know their students to be effective. This puts an upper limit on the number of students one teacher can teach at once. Something like 150 students. I need to know their names, and when I see that name a little about who that is.
Further, a student should have at least 4 or 5 teachers who know them. This is a selection of hopefully trustworthy and supportive adults they can turn to.
Most plans to make school less expensive mess with these numbers.
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@futurebird
tbh that 150 number still sounds pretty damn high (at least from my postsecondary perspective)—I had around 100 last semester in four classes, the largest with 32 students, and I was able to get to know *many* of them as individuals, but already that that scale it’s very hard to get to know the quiet ones who don’t stand out in some wayAlso 150 is the number of students in all of my classes combined. Basically the number I need to "know" at one time. It includes clubs, and everything I do at the school.
In a given class 12-18 students is the ideal number.
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Also 150 is the number of students in all of my classes combined. Basically the number I need to "know" at one time. It includes clubs, and everything I do at the school.
In a given class 12-18 students is the ideal number.
I have a study hall for 35 min once a week with 21 students and it's just too many even for something as boring and "simple" as study hall. (it'd be fine if it wasn't 7th graders, 7th grade is the hardest time for students, and they are so annoying, they know they are annoying and they just don't know how to stop and need our help.)
It's the WORST part of my week.
21 is pushing it since saying something to each of them pushes my limits, and they do need that.
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@futurebird 150 is such an enormous number jesus
this should be 50 max. MAX!!!
wtf is up w the education system
omg now i know why my profs are so exhaustedI'm not talking about 150 in one class. I'm talking about all of the classes combined.
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I have a study hall for 35 min once a week with 21 students and it's just too many even for something as boring and "simple" as study hall. (it'd be fine if it wasn't 7th graders, 7th grade is the hardest time for students, and they are so annoying, they know they are annoying and they just don't know how to stop and need our help.)
It's the WORST part of my week.
21 is pushing it since saying something to each of them pushes my limits, and they do need that.
There is a notion that "students aren't learning anything in study hall so it's not important"
I think for middle school students this is a big mistake. Study hall is the start of learning to manage your own time. Do you get your homework done? It's also learning to be considerate of others.
Some of the other teachers think I'm a little crazy for wanting to discuss it so much, but I think we could improve it a lot.
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There is a notion that "students aren't learning anything in study hall so it's not important"
I think for middle school students this is a big mistake. Study hall is the start of learning to manage your own time. Do you get your homework done? It's also learning to be considerate of others.
Some of the other teachers think I'm a little crazy for wanting to discuss it so much, but I think we could improve it a lot.
And if they aren't "learning anything" in study hall lets get rid of it.
I will teach them about ants instead.
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And if they aren't "learning anything" in study hall lets get rid of it.
I will teach them about ants instead.
I'm mostly kidding about that. But, if adults think something is a "throw away" kids can tell and it becomes a throw away.
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And if they aren't "learning anything" in study hall lets get rid of it.
I will teach them about ants instead.
@futurebird
I never had a study hall period all through K12—I honestly never understood the point of it? (But that’s maybe because in my schools it seemed to be viewed as a dumping ground for low-performing students who needed to be kept on campus.) -
Also 150 is the number of students in all of my classes combined. Basically the number I need to "know" at one time. It includes clubs, and everything I do at the school.
In a given class 12-18 students is the ideal number.
@futurebird
yeah, I think that’s a good size for most classes at any level (except seminars at upper-undergrad or graduate level)—but 150 still seems like a lot to get to know wellI’d target it at more like 50 to be optimal tbh
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In other words they are still trying to reduce "meaningful human contact hours" to make it as objective as possible.
But the "tell" that this isn't a serious proposal? The best schools where the children of the wealthy get their education won't even consider this for a second. We'd stop using paper to save money first, we'd do anything else.
This is only be floated for "other people's kids"
Young people need the time and attention of adults to grow up and learn. Controversial I know.
@futurebird kids also benefit from having role models. In the case of teachers, the simplest part of being a role model is demonstrating interest in the topic being taught, showing that it has value to real adults and isn't just something forced on kids by 'the system'
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@futurebird
I never had a study hall period all through K12—I honestly never understood the point of it? (But that’s maybe because in my schools it seemed to be viewed as a dumping ground for low-performing students who needed to be kept on campus.)@tkinias @futurebird I think that's important: it *can* be a place where they learn to rebel against being "dumped" and babysat.
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There is a notion that "students aren't learning anything in study hall so it's not important"
I think for middle school students this is a big mistake. Study hall is the start of learning to manage your own time. Do you get your homework done? It's also learning to be considerate of others.
Some of the other teachers think I'm a little crazy for wanting to discuss it so much, but I think we could improve it a lot.
My experience is that students don't really learn anything in any class.
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My experience is that students don't really learn anything in any class.
If that's how my classes went I'd quit. I could do other jobs that pay more. I teach because I like teaching.
