@futurebird

I worked in education technology for around 5 years and was very quickly disliiusioned that most of the field (i.e. technological approaches to "improve" education) is really just attempts to reduce labor costs/diminish the power of unions. Outcomes was always going to be secondary to the financials involved, because the field is completely captured by the notion that investment/hiring more teachers/improving working conditions for teachers _can't happen_. Their priors are that education has to be done "more cheaply", forgetting that this is a political assertion of ghouls.

@futurebird My sister is a head teacher, who's had to deal with 'failng' schools in the past, in rough areas. She said it's quickly obvious which kids have serious issues because of abuse and neglect, who need a lot of extra, specialised help, and which ones are mostly acting out because they're starved of attention from parents and teachers. Once they get that attention from teachers who care, rather than ones just trying to make them behave, they start to calm down and blossom.

A teacher needs to know their students to be effective. This puts an upper limit on the number of students one teacher can teach at once. Something like 150 students. I need to know their names, and when I see that name a little about who that is.

Further, a student should have at least 4 or 5 teachers who know them. This is a selection of hopefully trustworthy and supportive adults they can turn to.

Most plans to make school less expensive mess with these numbers.

@futurebird
tbh that 150 number still sounds pretty damn high (at least from my postsecondary perspective)—I had around 100 last semester in four classes, the largest with 32 students, and I was able to get to know *many* of them as individuals, but already that that scale it’s very hard to get to know the quiet ones who don’t stand out in some way

A teacher needs to know their students to be effective. This puts an upper limit on the number of students one teacher can teach at once. Something like 150 students. I need to know their names, and when I see that name a little about who that is.

Further, a student should have at least 4 or 5 teachers who know them. This is a selection of hopefully trustworthy and supportive adults they can turn to.

Most plans to make school less expensive mess with these numbers.

@futurebird
tbh that 150 number still sounds pretty damn high (at least from my postsecondary perspective)—I had around 100 last semester in four classes, the largest with 32 students, and I was able to get to know *many* of them as individuals, but already that that scale it’s very hard to get to know the quiet ones who don’t stand out in some way

@tkinias

Also 150 is the number of students in all of my classes combined. Basically the number I need to "know" at one time. It includes clubs, and everything I do at the school.

In a given class 12-18 students is the ideal number.

@futurebird 150 is such an enormous number jesus

this should be 50 max. MAX!!!

wtf is up w the education system omg now i know why my profs are so exhausted

@tkinias

I have a study hall for 35 min once a week with 21 students and it's just too many even for something as boring and "simple" as study hall. (it'd be fine if it wasn't 7th graders, 7th grade is the hardest time for students, and they are so annoying, they know they are annoying and they just don't know how to stop and need our help.)

It's the WORST part of my week.

21 is pushing it since saying something to each of them pushes my limits, and they do need that.

@tkinias

There is a notion that "students aren't learning anything in study hall so it's not important"

I think for middle school students this is a big mistake. Study hall is the start of learning to manage your own time. Do you get your homework done? It's also learning to be considerate of others.

Some of the other teachers think I'm a little crazy for wanting to discuss it so much, but I think we could improve it a lot.

@tkinias

And if they aren't "learning anything" in study hall lets get rid of it.

I will teach them about ants instead.

@tkinias

And if they aren't "learning anything" in study hall lets get rid of it.

I will teach them about ants instead.

@tkinias

Also 150 is the number of students in all of my classes combined. Basically the number I need to "know" at one time. It includes clubs, and everything I do at the school.

In a given class 12-18 students is the ideal number.

In other words they are still trying to reduce "meaningful human contact hours" to make it as objective as possible.

But the "tell" that this isn't a serious proposal? The best schools where the children of the wealthy get their education won't even consider this for a second. We'd stop using paper to save money first, we'd do anything else.

This is only be floated for "other people's kids"

Young people need the time and attention of adults to grow up and learn. Controversial I know.

@futurebird
I never had a study hall period all through K12—I honestly never understood the point of it? (But that’s maybe because in my schools it seemed to be viewed as a dumping ground for low-performing students who needed to be kept on campus.)

@tkinias

There is a notion that "students aren't learning anything in study hall so it's not important"

I think for middle school students this is a big mistake. Study hall is the start of learning to manage your own time. Do you get your homework done? It's also learning to be considerate of others.

Some of the other teachers think I'm a little crazy for wanting to discuss it so much, but I think we could improve it a lot.

@futurebird

My experience is that students don't really learn anything in any class.

@futurebird
yeah, I think that’s a good size for most classes at any level (except seminars at upper-undergrad or graduate level)—but 150 still seems like a lot to get to know well

I’d target it at more like 50 to be optimal tbh

@tkinias @futurebird I think that's important: it *can* be a place where they learn to rebel against being "dumped" and babysat.

In other words they are still trying to reduce "meaningful human contact hours" to make it as objective as possible.

But the "tell" that this isn't a serious proposal? The best schools where the children of the wealthy get their education won't even consider this for a second. We'd stop using paper to save money first, we'd do anything else.

This is only be floated for "other people's kids"

Young people need the time and attention of adults to grow up and learn. Controversial I know.