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Chebucto Regional Softball Club

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  3. Hollow Knight: Silksong devs address difficulty concerns: “You have choices”
A forum for discussing and organizing recreational softball and baseball games and leagues in the greater Halifax area.

Hollow Knight: Silksong devs address difficulty concerns: “You have choices”

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  • ? Guest
    You should encounter an ambush or boss fight within the first hour of gameplay, which is within Steam's refund window. If you don't learn from it, well, sucks to suck. The tools are all there. If you're slow at progressing because the game is too difficult, that's a different complaint, which is valid as there should be difficulty settings. Dying is part of the game. dying multiple times to a boss to learn their moveset is the intended gameplay loop. Having unexpected ambushes caught everyone by surprise the first time they went through it. Yet, once you do, it is up to you to learn that you can't get your stuff back easily so you should be banking your beads and that 20 bead cost isn't actually that bad as you probably first thought compared to losing everything. Like, for this specific complaint, that's entirely on you to figure out and adapt to the intended gameplay loop. How long that takes to figure out is up to your ability to learn and adapt.
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    Guest
    wrote last edited by
    #89
    Git gud or leave but no complaining allowed okay bud. No, the difficulty being too high is not a different complaint, it's exactly what we're talking about. The AI, the room setups and somehow every bug being placed exactly where you're jumping, the runbacks, getting killed in 3 hits half of the time even though you have 5 HP, getting juggled to death into a spike trap or lava as soon as the first hit despite requiring 3 hits to die despite having 5 HP, getting hit when you're healing and losing all of it, every single stupidest bug requiring at least 2 or 3 hits to kill and somehow up to 6 or 8 for the bigger ones when they all dodge everything and you have garbage range, anything that flies especially, constant pixel perfect coordination in your jumps, the need to be alert 100% of the time between environment traps and enemies and always have the perfect speedrun strat, on top of the resource management, this is all one complaint. It's artificially way too hard and there is zero learning curve and no way to tune it down, and it would be less of a problem if you didn't lose all the resources you were collecting for an hour of doing that loop. Take off some of those or loosen some positioning and it's already much less stressful - literally any one mod is a big help already (no 2HP damage, respawn near your coccoon...) It's ruthless, it allows zero second of paying a little less attention, it's on purpose, and it is not the player's fault for not running back to a string station that is not marked anywhere. This is not a healthy game to play, and it shouldn't be justified by saying it's for players who want to get very good at every single screen of it and *no one else*. You want to buy Shakra's map? Too bad, that room is empty now for some reason, and you have no idea where to find the map now, you don't know Shakra comes back to the shop area and can be called with that ring, and since you HAVE NO MAP you don't even know where to go at all anyway. Benches and bellways, same, you CAN'T GO BACK or safely rest and create a checkpoint until you have the funds to even unlock them, at which point getting your beads stringed becomes useless because you just spent them. See that mask shard and/or the simple key and you think it'd be nice to buy in your first couple hours? Your fault for not wanting to keep going back and forth between the docks and the shop to make a string, on top of going back and forth to the farming room for an hour at 5 to 15 beads per run in lava for the Deep Docks, so that's 500 rosaries gone the second time in a row some stupid bug won't get out of the way but also reads your every input to dodge every single time you even *look at them*. And even the first time you die, if you had no bench close by and no map, good luck even getting your coccoon back. What I've learned is to completely ignore those big stashes and strings of free rosaries because it's all bait that you'll lose in a minute and then permanently the next minute (that Greymoor bird house trap and Moorwing are NOT in the refund window). And learning that didn't make the experience any better. That's the difficulty problem we're talking about, these are not two separate things, it's literally the whole game. On its own, dying repeatedly is not such a big deal if all you have to do is redo that one jump or even that one series of 15 perfect jumps (fucking Karnak), other Metroidvanias do that too and they're not awful. It's everything around it and the permanent pressure. This game's trap is that people who played the newer Metroid or Prince of Persia think dying repeatedly in a lengthy, very hard bounce-and-dash maze is not a huge deal breaker even if this one ramps it up to "every screen is a constant challenge", but they don't know they should also have played Dark Souls and some other roguelikes first.
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    • J jax@sh.itjust.works
      You're right, difference being that what you're saying is more akin (following the analogy) to putting wheelchair ramps on a mountain. Silksong is the mountain, git gud and climb it or shut the fuck up.
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      Guest
      wrote last edited by
      #90
      > Silksong is the mountain, git gud and climb it or shut the fuck up. No, Silksong is a game, bright moving colors on a screen, meant to amuse and entertain. You're not an elite mountaineer for pressing buttons faster than a disabled person, to move a spider in a red dress on the screen.
      J 1 Reply Last reply
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      • ? Guest
        > Silksong is the mountain, git gud and climb it or shut the fuck up. No, Silksong is a game, bright moving colors on a screen, meant to amuse and entertain. You're not an elite mountaineer for pressing buttons faster than a disabled person, to move a spider in a red dress on the screen.
        J This user is from outside of this forum
        J This user is from outside of this forum
        jax@sh.itjust.works
        wrote last edited by
        #91
        > Silksong is a game, bright moving colors on a screen, meant to amuse and entertain. > You're not an elite mountaineer for pressing buttons faster than a disabled person Crying about difficulty in video games isn't going to stop. There are thousands of video games that are not difficult.
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        • J jax@sh.itjust.works
          And the idea that every game should be for everyone is the reason why Elden Ring is... kind of a bad game. Great open world, beautiful scenery... bad boss design, which yes — that is the game. Like, think about this in the real world setting. Think about how this hyopthetical would play out, person becomes disabled and has to sit in a wheelchair. Everyone agrees 'it's not fair that they can't walk, no one should walk because this person can't'. Does that make sense to you? Because it doesn't to me, I'm sorry if there are people who can't beat these games — but damn, at some point you have to recognize life isn't fair and just enjoy the shit you do enjoy. If being good at a video game isn't important to you, *ok* that's your prerogative. Do not play the hard video game. But this constant whining about difficulty settings and nerfs is just obnoxious.
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          wrote last edited by
          #92
          I'm sorry that having an optional setting for people that aren't as capable as so offensive to you. I also think most people would agree it would be pretty cool if we could fairly easy add an option for people in a wheelchair to get them walking. Clearly you'd rather they didn't.
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          • ? Guest
            I'm sorry that having an optional setting for people that aren't as capable as so offensive to you. I also think most people would agree it would be pretty cool if we could fairly easy add an option for people in a wheelchair to get them walking. Clearly you'd rather they didn't.
            J This user is from outside of this forum
            J This user is from outside of this forum
            jax@sh.itjust.works
            wrote last edited by
            #93
            > be pretty cool if we could fairly easy add an option for people in a wheelchair to get them walking. Clearly you'd rather they didn't. Great so you missed the point entirely, just like most people miss the point of games with one difficulty setting.
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            • ? Guest
              Cool. So I guess people like me with neuropathy should fuck off so people like you can get a boost of perceived superiority because God forbid they put a slider for slowing game speed or other such settings so people like me with physical limitations can adjust the challenge to our capabilities. The existence of OPTIONAL difficulty settings has nothing to do with your experience of the game. If you don't opt into using them, your game experience is literally no different than if they didn't exist at all. Yes, you in fact are being elitist. The way other people are able to experience the game has NOTHING to do with your experience.
              theneverfox@pawb.socialT This user is from outside of this forum
              theneverfox@pawb.socialT This user is from outside of this forum
              theneverfox@pawb.social
              wrote last edited by
              #94
              No, you should have a button through the workshop where you can add mods to slow down the game, take less damage, or whatever else you want or need. Let people rebalance the whole damn game if they want, if that makes you enjoy the game I'm happy for you It should made easier then it is right now with proper workshop integration so it can be done in just a couple clicks. I'd support calling for that What I don't want is for team cherry to be pressured to change the game. It's amazing as is, it's extremely well thought out in how it challenges you even as the difficulty people complain about prepares you for future challenges. But people who will never enjoy it for what it is instantly demand it be watered down You think a speed slider is going to make this game accessible? That's not how this game works. This game is impossible at every challenge until it isn't. That is the game. It's rhythm and reaction, if you can do it slow you can do it normally If I didn't have a friend who played smash with three fingers and his hip on a heavily modded controller, I wouldn't have the instincts to be able to play this game. He kicked my ass every time, despite nerve palsy that left him with half of one working hand This game is not for everyone. And I don't mean because of abilities... I'm not that good of a gamer. This game is for people who don't accept their limits
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              • theneverfox@pawb.socialT theneverfox@pawb.social
                No, you should have a button through the workshop where you can add mods to slow down the game, take less damage, or whatever else you want or need. Let people rebalance the whole damn game if they want, if that makes you enjoy the game I'm happy for you It should made easier then it is right now with proper workshop integration so it can be done in just a couple clicks. I'd support calling for that What I don't want is for team cherry to be pressured to change the game. It's amazing as is, it's extremely well thought out in how it challenges you even as the difficulty people complain about prepares you for future challenges. But people who will never enjoy it for what it is instantly demand it be watered down You think a speed slider is going to make this game accessible? That's not how this game works. This game is impossible at every challenge until it isn't. That is the game. It's rhythm and reaction, if you can do it slow you can do it normally If I didn't have a friend who played smash with three fingers and his hip on a heavily modded controller, I wouldn't have the instincts to be able to play this game. He kicked my ass every time, despite nerve palsy that left him with half of one working hand This game is not for everyone. And I don't mean because of abilities... I'm not that good of a gamer. This game is for people who don't accept their limits
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                wrote last edited by
                #95
                I played on PS5. No mods for me. Literally, my entire argument is that those features that mods provide should be pre-baked into the game. Would be better if console gaming was able to be modded in the first place so that burden didn't fall to the devs but company interests prevent that from ever happening but that's a whole other topic. Silksong has an amazing structure and design. It really is like a song. The enemy patterns are well thought out. The level design is amazing with Bosses that are unique, with each area having their own key they are played in. The moves are precise yet varied with the different crests, a plethora of instruments to choose from (even if you do have to go looking for them). Top tier Metroidvania once again by Team Cherry. It has a good flow if you can find it and get into that loop of "explore, stock up, boss, repeat steps 2 and 3 until boss defeated or skip to step 5 if hitting a wall, cleanup, backtrack" of the genre. Yet, songs can be played at different tempos. Games need to let people play at their tempo so they are able to catch the rhythm. Like, I'm not saying "items need to be cheaper" or to remove the rosary system because "it's dump to lose all your currency and have it stuck somewhere" when you have the ability to stock up through the string stations. I have CMT. My nerves are fucked because of it. One of the symptoms is that my nerve speed is significantly slowed due to a faulty protein in the myelin sheath. No matter how hard I try, I will never regain the reaction speed or dexterity. I used to be an amazing guitarist. I was a top tier fighting gamer on MK and Soul Calibur. Now? After years of the disease progressing. I physically will never be able to pull off the things I used to do in my youth. Yet I still enjoy these games because they have difficulty settings. In competitive, I'm matched with people of my skill level. Also, with friends, handicaps exist for a reason. With Metroidvanias, no matter how much I loved playing them in my youth, I'll never be able to play the older ones that don't have difficulty settings unless I play them in an emulator. Newer ones I can't play unless they have difficulty settings for things like parry timings, game speed, or sensitivity settings for aiming. So yes, I do physically need difficulty settings that adjust game timings in the games I play if they are required. This isn't My Hero Academia or Dragon Ball. I can't just go Plus Ultra or surpass my limits by screaming really loud until my hair turns blonde.
                theneverfox@pawb.socialT 1 Reply Last reply
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                • ? Guest
                  I played on PS5. No mods for me. Literally, my entire argument is that those features that mods provide should be pre-baked into the game. Would be better if console gaming was able to be modded in the first place so that burden didn't fall to the devs but company interests prevent that from ever happening but that's a whole other topic. Silksong has an amazing structure and design. It really is like a song. The enemy patterns are well thought out. The level design is amazing with Bosses that are unique, with each area having their own key they are played in. The moves are precise yet varied with the different crests, a plethora of instruments to choose from (even if you do have to go looking for them). Top tier Metroidvania once again by Team Cherry. It has a good flow if you can find it and get into that loop of "explore, stock up, boss, repeat steps 2 and 3 until boss defeated or skip to step 5 if hitting a wall, cleanup, backtrack" of the genre. Yet, songs can be played at different tempos. Games need to let people play at their tempo so they are able to catch the rhythm. Like, I'm not saying "items need to be cheaper" or to remove the rosary system because "it's dump to lose all your currency and have it stuck somewhere" when you have the ability to stock up through the string stations. I have CMT. My nerves are fucked because of it. One of the symptoms is that my nerve speed is significantly slowed due to a faulty protein in the myelin sheath. No matter how hard I try, I will never regain the reaction speed or dexterity. I used to be an amazing guitarist. I was a top tier fighting gamer on MK and Soul Calibur. Now? After years of the disease progressing. I physically will never be able to pull off the things I used to do in my youth. Yet I still enjoy these games because they have difficulty settings. In competitive, I'm matched with people of my skill level. Also, with friends, handicaps exist for a reason. With Metroidvanias, no matter how much I loved playing them in my youth, I'll never be able to play the older ones that don't have difficulty settings unless I play them in an emulator. Newer ones I can't play unless they have difficulty settings for things like parry timings, game speed, or sensitivity settings for aiming. So yes, I do physically need difficulty settings that adjust game timings in the games I play if they are required. This isn't My Hero Academia or Dragon Ball. I can't just go Plus Ultra or surpass my limits by screaming really loud until my hair turns blonde.
                  theneverfox@pawb.socialT This user is from outside of this forum
                  theneverfox@pawb.socialT This user is from outside of this forum
                  theneverfox@pawb.social
                  wrote last edited by
                  #96
                  Ok, but like... You could be having the experience you want if you plugged your current controller into a computer (not even a particularly high powered one for this game), spent an hour or two messing around with it, and if you struggle with the modding process people would help you? I've found a mod that does exactly what you want on nexus mods, it changes the game speed on the fly [Link if you're interested](https://www.nexusmods.com/hollowknightsilksong/mods/168) I'm not being elitist when I say you can't make a game for everyone... You literally cannot. You can't be the same handful of people who spent 7 years polishing every aspect of a game to tune it just right, then also keep track of a granular set of difficulty sliders throughout the process. These are incompatible design philosophies, you can't make a game like Silksong like that
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                  • theneverfox@pawb.socialT theneverfox@pawb.social
                    Ok, but like... You could be having the experience you want if you plugged your current controller into a computer (not even a particularly high powered one for this game), spent an hour or two messing around with it, and if you struggle with the modding process people would help you? I've found a mod that does exactly what you want on nexus mods, it changes the game speed on the fly [Link if you're interested](https://www.nexusmods.com/hollowknightsilksong/mods/168) I'm not being elitist when I say you can't make a game for everyone... You literally cannot. You can't be the same handful of people who spent 7 years polishing every aspect of a game to tune it just right, then also keep track of a granular set of difficulty sliders throughout the process. These are incompatible design philosophies, you can't make a game like Silksong like that
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                    wrote last edited by
                    #97
                    Don't have a computer to play from. Literally, it is not an option. You're just fishing for excuses now. Like, yes, you're kinda still being elitist. I'm just going to end this with "agree to disagree" cause I've given you as much logic as possible but you still won't see reason.
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                    • ? Guest
                      I have been pleading with my husband to do exactly this. But no, he will continue to bash his face off enemies until they die by some kind of miracle. He has 5 masks, does not use red tools (but uses the poison polyp in his one blue slot), does not pogo or hit enemies above him, not use running attacks, or heal in the air. Just straight on hit with nail while face tanking and ground heal. I am DREADING him somehow reaching Bilewater. I absolutely KNOW he is not the only person playing like this, and suspish this is the main source of the difficulty discourse...
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                      Guest
                      wrote last edited by
                      #98
                      Out of curiosity, did he reach Bilewater? Also, did he got infected and if so, was he able to cure himself?
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