Jesus does this thing where he says "take some of this bread, it's my body"
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In fact I take the radical position that the more people repair and replace part of the ship... the MORE it's "The Ship of Theseus" because of that investment of time and of defining what it is.
If it were buried in the sand and perfectly preserved but forgotten? Then it might just be "a ship" with no name.
@futurebird I think that's an interesting position. Do you still feel that way if the ship is replaced all at once? And hey, sailing ships are not part of most people's experience, so what if we frame the question this way: how do you feel about Star Trek's ship named Enterprise referring to dramatically different ships at different times? It's clear in-setting that people have deep emotional attachments to their version of the ship, and I think it's not uncommon for viewers to feel the same.
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Consider some objects that are precious that you'd never throw away.
A gift of jewelry from a friend or lover. A special drawing by a child. A poem written by hand by someone who passed away.
If that object were replaced with an *identical* copy would you feel loss? Knowing that you had a perfect copy? But not the original.
I want to say "no I would not care" but this is a big fat lie I think.
@futurebird What if someone "shuffled" the original and duplicate so you don't know which was which, but you know one of them is the original. Do you now cherish them both equally? Personally I would say I cherish each one a _little_ less, but definitely not half as much.
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@futurebird What if someone "shuffled" the original and duplicate so you don't know which was which, but you know one of them is the original. Do you now cherish them both equally? Personally I would say I cherish each one a _little_ less, but definitely not half as much.
I'd destroy one and keep going. Decide I had the original for absolutely no rational reason.
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@futurebird I think that's an interesting position. Do you still feel that way if the ship is replaced all at once? And hey, sailing ships are not part of most people's experience, so what if we frame the question this way: how do you feel about Star Trek's ship named Enterprise referring to dramatically different ships at different times? It's clear in-setting that people have deep emotional attachments to their version of the ship, and I think it's not uncommon for viewers to feel the same.
I do have a connection to sailboats as it happens.
But I tend to care most that they are in working order and that the rest of the crew can cover the things I can't do.
And boats are replaced "all at once" when they can't be saved. People often given them the same name, and end up thinking of it as the same as more time passes?
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Jesus does this thing where he says "take some of this bread, it's my body"
"take this wine it's my blood"Taking common humble objects and ascribing greater significance. (Or saying they transform if you like)
It's *odd* that everyone gets obsessed with the *particular* cup used on this occasion. (But long after the fact.)
Kind of feels like it is missing the point? Couldn't ANY cup be the holy grail? Just like ANY bread can be the body of Christ.
@futurebird@sauropods.win Durch die Wandlung kann jeder Becher zum wahren Kelch werden. Ein wichtiges Reliqium sind die Splitter des Kreuzes an dem Jesus so gehangen hat. Aus den heute noch erhaltenen Splittern könnten 3452 Kreuze an denen Jesus gehangen hat rekonstruiert werden. Mit dem Blut, das Statuen von Jesus bluten, werden jedes Jahr 348 verunglückte Motorradfahrer mit Blutkonserven versorgt.
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@futurebird@sauropods.win Durch die Wandlung kann jeder Becher zum wahren Kelch werden. Ein wichtiges Reliqium sind die Splitter des Kreuzes an dem Jesus so gehangen hat. Aus den heute noch erhaltenen Splittern könnten 3452 Kreuze an denen Jesus gehangen hat rekonstruiert werden. Mit dem Blut, das Statuen von Jesus bluten, werden jedes Jahr 348 verunglückte Motorradfahrer mit Blutkonserven versorgt.
If magic is real we should put it to work right away.
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Consider some objects that are precious that you'd never throw away.
A gift of jewelry from a friend or lover. A special drawing by a child. A poem written by hand by someone who passed away.
If that object were replaced with an *identical* copy would you feel loss? Knowing that you had a perfect copy? But not the original.
I want to say "no I would not care" but this is a big fat lie I think.
@futurebird I think we're getting into Ship of Theseus territory.
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@futurebird I think we're getting into Ship of Theseus territory.
Yeah we're already on that one already.
Listen. Let's say I wrote a fan fiction where I describe a romance that isn't in the cannon, but then someone rewrites it so that one of the two people in the relationship is different, then another person rewrites it so that the other one is also different and now the relationship *is* cannon.
Is it still a ship?
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Jesus does this thing where he says "take some of this bread, it's my body"
"take this wine it's my blood"Taking common humble objects and ascribing greater significance. (Or saying they transform if you like)
It's *odd* that everyone gets obsessed with the *particular* cup used on this occasion. (But long after the fact.)
Kind of feels like it is missing the point? Couldn't ANY cup be the holy grail? Just like ANY bread can be the body of Christ.
@futurebird
The answer is that the Arthurian Holy Grail was not originally associated with the Christian holy chalice; the Holy Grail was just a magical cup with healing powers, and the Jesus stuff was ret-conned in later. The holy chalice just inherited this pre-existing significance, and then the English colonized everybody. -
@futurebird
The answer is that the Arthurian Holy Grail was not originally associated with the Christian holy chalice; the Holy Grail was just a magical cup with healing powers, and the Jesus stuff was ret-conned in later. The holy chalice just inherited this pre-existing significance, and then the English colonized everybody.Oh. Well that would explain a lot.
It's odd how there was a fixation on the cup, but that makes more sense.
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Yeah we're already on that one already.
Listen. Let's say I wrote a fan fiction where I describe a romance that isn't in the cannon, but then someone rewrites it so that one of the two people in the relationship is different, then another person rewrites it so that the other one is also different and now the relationship *is* cannon.
Is it still a ship?
@futurebird @Mkagle Where on the ship's deck is this cannon mounted?
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@futurebird @Mkagle Where on the ship's deck is this cannon mounted?
You light the way. This joke can be made so much worse.
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I do have a connection to sailboats as it happens.
But I tend to care most that they are in working order and that the rest of the crew can cover the things I can't do.
And boats are replaced "all at once" when they can't be saved. People often given them the same name, and end up thinking of it as the same as more time passes?
The Ship of Theseus idea reminds me when I hear it, that the water of Earth cycles, and mixes over the ages such that our bodies, contain a number of water molecules from all living people & creatures beyond a certain point in the past. A couple of thousand years might be a good benchmark...
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The Ship of Theseus idea reminds me when I hear it, that the water of Earth cycles, and mixes over the ages such that our bodies, contain a number of water molecules from all living people & creatures beyond a certain point in the past. A couple of thousand years might be a good benchmark...
